What No One Tells You About Losing Your Job with Michelle Schafer (ep. 240)

Speaker 2 0:05

Welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast, a show about crafting a life you love and making work optional using the tools of mindfulness, envisioning, and financial independence. I'm your host, Adam Coelho, and I'm so glad you're here. Each episode of the Mindful Fire Podcast explores these three tools through teachings, guided meditations, and inspiring interviews with people actually living them to craft a life they love. If you're ready to start your Mindful Fire journey, go to mindfulfire.org/start and download my free envisioning guide. In just 10 minutes, this guide will help you craft a clear and inspiring vision for your life. Again, you can download it for free at mindfulfire.org/start. Let's jump into today's episode

Adam Coelho 1:07

Michelle, welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here.

Michelle Schafer 1:11

Thank you so much, Adam. I am excited for our conversation today.

Adam Coelho 1:14

Me too. I'm excited to dive into the work that you do in supporting people figure out what's next for their careers. And I'm excited to dive into a topic that we've hinted at a number of times on the podcast, which is layoffs. Yes. We're all seeing these layoffs all around the economy, for the last several years, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down, so- a lot of people are experiencing this. And specifically with regards to the path to financial independence, what I've recently come to understand is that- we often think that we will get to choose when our, quote, "early retirement" starts. But in fact, that choice might be made for us. We might get laid off, we might get pushed out, as happened to me. And so when that happens, whether you want to find another job or not, it can be a huge shock. And I know that you support people in dealing with that and figuring out how to move forward. So really excited to dive into all of that with you today.

Michelle Schafer 2:12

Yeah, absolutely. And it's really interesting, Adam, as you mentioned, layoffs are everywhere. I'm in Ottawa, Canada, you're in the United States. There are, like, plenty of layoffs happening on both sides of our borders. And, the one thing that I've come to appreciate, and not, not just from working with clients who have experienced job loss, but I've also, like you, have experienced restructuring, two actually, in the time that, that I've been working professionally. it's a business decision. It's a business decision that profoundly affects humans, and this is the thing that I see, when I'm first talking to individuals when they've lost their job. some people, they've been blindsided. They haven't seen it coming, or they thought that they were going to be safe. That was a false, expectation that they were going to be safe. So when it happens for them, they are experiencing so many different emotions, there's the shock, disappointment, the betrayal that, a number of people feel, especially if a lot of their identity is wrapped up in their work and they feel very loyal. there's the overwhelm of now having to look for work. the flip of all that though, Adam, that not a lot of people talk about with job loss is there is hope and opportunity as well. So I have seen it, I've seen it with myself, and for you as well. a job loss can open up a door for people, to something new, to early retirement or another possibility. And, just in the moment it can be really hard to really recognize all that.

Adam Coelho 3:50

Yeah, it really can be but there is opportunity on the other side and I'm excited to dive into how you support people both in the initial phase and then moving forward but before we get into that, I'd love for you to share with the audience a little bit about who you are, your journey, and what you're up to in the world.

Michelle Schafer 4:07

For sure. it's interesting. I've been in, coaching as a career coach, specializing in career transition for, almost 11 years now. And, I joke with people that, at age 46, I finally figured out what I was going to do when I grew up. I'm in coaching. I don't see turning back from this path, at all. but certainly, things that I've done over my career have led me to that. at the time I experienced my first restructure, I was working for a very large bank, a national bank here in Canada, and, was specializing more in learning and development. And, at the time of that restructure, that was the first time it was called into question for me. I thought, "What do I wanna do next?" Which is interesting. Now I help people with that big question, but that was certainly something that I wrestled with. And, I really believe in, in reflection, taking stock of what's important to you, over the course of your life and your career. And, and I'm gonna get into some key questions that people can ask themselves. But, before that, one of the things that I've reflected on when I was restructured the first time was I had a real love for volunteering. I've been a serial volunteer since the age of 12, and that really led me to not-for-profit, and that was my next professional opportunity was working with a large national cancer organization, here in Ottawa. But, as things happen in not-for-profit, funding dictates everything, and when funding isn't there, people and/or programs need to be released. And so I lost my job a second time, and it was second restructure that, that made me realize that I really love working with people, developing people. I've actually been coaching off of the side of my desk for many years. And, a good friend of mine planted a seed with me about coaching, even before I lost my job the second time. So when I experienced restructure number two, I remembered that seed, that seed planted about coaching, and so I pursued that and realized that was something that, that I really wanted to do. And because I had been restructured twice, I wanted people to have a conversation partner, and somebody that would develop a roadmap with them to help them find their next opportunity. So that led me to specializing in career transition. I also do some leadership development work, predominantly career transition. And, with all of the layoffs happening right now, I'm working with clients who are questioning what their next step is, helping them rebound and recover from a job loss, and, helping them find new work. And that work is deeply rewarding. To see somebody who maybe comes to me, feeling very stuck and unsure, and to leave our work together with clarity and a lot of cases, a new job, there's no price tag on that at all. It's hugely rewarding.

Adam Coelho 7:00

it's such important work, and I know that it's, can be very isolating and demoralizing when you go through- a job loss, whatever the situation might be. even if you leave on your own a- accord, like that can be a challenge in itself. Always. but certainly it's difficult when it happens to you and you're not in the driver's seat. One thing I'd love to ask about is the seed that was planted. You said a- a friend of yours planted a seed for coaching. Yeah. I'd love to hear how that came about, And I'll share why I'm asking this. One of the key concepts that we talk about on this podcast is the idea of planting seeds. the way I talk about it is your story creates your reality because of how your brain works, So the stories that you tell yourself are like seeds that you're planting and watering. And the ones that you pay attention to most are the ones that you're watering, and ultimately, the ones that grow and create the actions, the behaviors, and create the life aligned with that story. So I'm curious how that seed was planted for you from your friend.

Michelle Schafer 7:59

and it's interesting because my friend Val, who planted the seed, this is somebody I've known for over 30 years, actually. She's a coach herself. So we... You'll love this, Adam. We were at, this is years ago. I was still employed by this large national cancer organization, and loving my job, at the time. we had attended a meditation workshop together. And we were on a break, and it was just so random. it just completely came out of the blue, and she just said, I never understood why you n- didn't pursue coaching as a career." it just kinda came out like that. And I said to her, I said I said, "Well, I, I love my job." And, at the time I was, marketing, and promoting, programs to help, cancer survivors and their families. I was working with volunteers who all had a deep connection to the cancer cause. and I had successfully negotiated a five-day a week job to a three-day a week job to be at home with my kids when they were younger. And I said to her, said, I, I would have no intention of doing anything. that's interesting- but, I lo- I love my job, I love my schedule. I've always got four-day weekends. Like, why would I wanna mess with that?" So I parked it, and then when I was restructured the second time, I just thought, I remember what my friend said." I hadn't forgotten about it completely. And I thought, "Maybe this is the universe opening up an opportunity for me. Maybe this is the time. I should at least check it out. maybe it's not for me, but maybe it is for me. I won't know until I actually explore it." And so when I lost my job for the second time, I did start obviously looking for work, contribute to the mortgage and, all those kind of things. But at the same time I was networking for work, I was also networking with coaches. So I was asking for connections to different coaches. I wanted to know, what is coaching really? what kind of specialties are there? Because, there's coaches for all kinds of things, right? Financially, focused coaches, health and wellness coaches, leadership coaches, career coaches like myself. And so I wanted to know more about how do people get in it, what are the, rewards and challenges, just as a way of learning. And, I... It was funny because one of the conversations I had as doing this networking with coaches, the person I was speaking with, I didn't know it then, but she turned out to be the teacher for my first level of coaching certification. But she was, suggested to me as somebody to reach out to, A, because she's a coach, but B, she was also very well-connected in the community. I might be able to find a new work opportunity through her. So I remember sitting in her backyard and we were chatting, and I was asking her questions and, and she leaned back at one point and she just said, you don't need me to validate this step for you. You already know what you wanna do." And as soon as she said that, I went, Yeah. Why..." I was having all these meetings with coaches, I think, as a way to validate that I would be right for this path. it's- Am I making the right investment? And- and then I realized, yeah, I don't need to validate this anymore, and I just signed up, to get my first level coaching certification, and then she was my teacher for that first level. I, I will share this. I'm so glad that you brought that up because I share this with clients who are trying to figure out their next step. I'll ask them, Has anybody ever planted a seed with you? Have they said, 'You would be a great project manager,' for example?" and sometimes people say, "Yeah, like sometimes people will tell me this or that would be really a great fit." maybe this is the time to investigate and explore whether that's right for you. So those planted seeds, can really, take root and grow if we water them, feed it, give it the light and the air and the space to possibly mature into something. So yeah, those are seeds not to ignore.

Adam Coelho 12:02

Yeah. Yeah, I think back to opportunities in my life and the seeds that were planted. years and years ago, I don't even know, 10 years ago or something, I was... I had this thought, oh, might be cool to, to be a coach. And I'm like, I don't know anything about coaching. I don't- I n- don't know anything about this. But

Michelle Schafer 12:19

yeah,

Adam Coelho 12:19

maybe, maybe at some point. And then, fast-forward years later, it's what I'm doing. I'm- I'm helping people in, my own way with my, sharing my experience, and you're, you're doing a similar thing, right? You went through this yourself several times, and you're helping people on the other side- or get to the other side, and I'm doing this, a similar thing. But yeah, it's... So, if you're listening to this, think about what are those seeds that might have been planted a long time ago, either by thoughts that you had that seemed interesting at the time or that other people have said to you? I'm sure there are, uh, many of those.

Michelle Schafer 14:01

Yeah. And I think, like, any of those seeds can just open up the door to possibility. Like I mentioned earlier how job loss, yes, it can be debilitating. there's no question. It can also lead to something completely new. and when we follow those threads, it can open up a door that we didn't even think was accessible for us or possible for us. I'm always so encouraged by, clients who come back to me and they say, Like-" I didn't see my job loss as a gift in the moment because it's hard to see it as a gift in the moment. but they realize now that it allowed them to maybe start their own business, go into consulting, really do a massive pivot into something totally new, that had they just continued showing up for their job and continued to be employed at that same company doing that same kind of work, they may not have even thought about it, or they maybe thought about it, but, then also talked themselves out of it. "Oh, I can't leave what I'm doing- because it's giving me the financial security and all of that." And then as soon as somebody else makes that decision- for you, now you realize, "Okay, yeah, I've got a choice here. I could find work that's exactly the same as what I did," or like I like to call it, what's waiting backstage in your life to make an entrance on that stage? there might be things waiting backstage that, that curtain hasn't been pulled back on it, but maybe now is the time to do that. so there's so many possibilities that, that can spring from losing a job.

Adam Coelho 15:39

Yeah. That's certainly looking back on my situation is the case. like I could have kept doing what I was doing for a while, and for a while I did, right? I think A lot of people in the financial independence retire early movement get stuck in this concept of one more year syndrome. It's essentially, "Oh, I'm just gonna keep going one more year," and we tell ourselves all sorts of stories as to why. I need to figure out healthcare. I need to make sure I won't run out of money, and this and that golden handcuffs is a great reason to stay as well. I was in that situation were things great? No. But were they okay? Yeah. A lot of people are in that things are good, things are fine stage, but they haven't given themself a chance to think about what could be on the other side. And for me, I had a clear vision of what I was moving towards and building towards, but having that situation where I really was put to the test and pushed out gave me the opportunity to, number one, sh- see how resilient I am s- and learn a bunch of lessons about this path that I'm on and, and supporting people in that I would never have seen, right? I thought, oh, yeah, having, as we call it in this space, we call it FU money, right? Money in the bank so that you can... If you get in a bad situation or something happens, like you're gonna be fine. Or you can say, "F you, I'm out of here," right? I thought that was enough But what I realized through this process is you actually also need to know where you're going. And so something I had been kicking around, waiting backstage in my life-

Michelle Schafer 17:08

which was

Adam Coelho 17:09

to pitch this idea to do my Ask What's Possible workshop for, the executive summit program at Google, where they bring in C-level executives and they try to deepen the partnership. I always had a vision of bringing my workshop into those spaces- to get the people more connected, thinking bigger, all of that. And when this happened, it was like, okay, I'm not gonna take the small amount of severance they're offering to me. Quote, "Offering to me." but I am-

Michelle Schafer 17:34

you're entitled to.

Adam Coelho 17:35

Exactly. Now we're... It's now or never, and I, I, I kind of said, "Nope, I'm not gonna take that." I went onto the PIP or whatever they wanna call it. I crushed that- and also went and pitched the president of the Americas on this workshop, got the workshop, and unfortunately was let go the day before- because it happened to be the end of the quarter. they just wanted to get one more person off their books for the next earnings call. And but that lit a fire under me pushed me- into this next chapter, that, I might have hung out for another year or so- if I didn't do that. And so it can be a huge, pivot point.

Michelle Schafer 18:10

and one thing, to add to that, I'm so glad that you said, Adam, like, don't wait. like, you don't have to wait until there's a job loss and you're told, "Yeah, sorry, like, we're letting you go." these are things that people can do before. I always say, be one step ahead of where you wanna be so then you're not scrambling and you're not panicking. And, for any of your listeners that are... Maybe you're in a situation, maybe you're in a toxic, relationship with your leader there's just a toxic culture or, or you just, don't feel the same about your work anymore and you realize, I... There's something more for me. so I wrote a book, Adam, and- It's called Cultivating Career Growth: Navigating Transitions With Purpose, and there's a chapter in there, chapter number three is called Hit the Pause Button. So we don't hit the pause button very often. We go with the flow in our career, we take the promotion, we apply for the job, rarely we don't think about what's really important to us. So hitting the pause button is, stopping everything and saying, "Hold on. What's really important in my career today?" So that you can intentionally line up your opportunity, your next opportunity to that. And for, for anybody who is listening who maybe, maybe you have experienced job loss or you're in a situation where you realize, "I wanna leave, but I don't really know what I'd be leaving for"- there's five questions that are part of hitting the pause button that you can literally answer these questions and hold them up against your current opportunity and see what's aligned and where there's some big c- disconnects. So question number one: What work fires you up, gives you energy? question number two is the flip of that: What work drains you, doesn't give you energy? Maybe it used to, it doesn't anymore. question number three is: What is the right environment for you to do your best work? So what are the values of the organization, the mandate? What kind of leaders does this organization employ? What kind of team members? Making sure that there's alignment. question number four: What are my transferable skills, like delivering an exceptional customer service experience, leading projects, leading teams, building relationships, doing research? They're all transferable skills. What skills are, can be sought after in other sectors? And question number five: What are my deal breakers? what are the non-negotiables, the things that are so deeply important to me- I will walk away from something if those things are not there? And when we answer those five questions, it will, first of all, inform our next step, like especially if we're in a job loss. It can also help you decide, do I stay at this organization or do I go? And just taking that reflective time is so powerful. I know you believe in that, too, Adam.

Adam Coelho 21:04

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing those questions. it's really important to know yourself. self-awareness is the foundation of everything, right? The more that we can know ourselves deeply, what we care about, what we value, what we want our lives to be about- the more that we can act in those ways, and it starts with reflecting what gives me energy, what takes away energy, what I often have people do in the work that I do with them, is I hap- have them think really big without any constraints, looking five years ahead. If everything goes better than expected, what does your life look like, right? S- imagine you're sitting at your k- kitchen table five years from now describing how unbelievably awesome everything has gone, and that opens up the world of possibility for you. And, if people wanna, to check out that exercise, they can do that at mindfullfire.org/start. It's always available there. But I love these questions because they're a little bit more reflective on you in your career, right? in the work that you do. I, I, I'd love to understand, somebody comes to you, they've, been laid off. what does that process look like from- kind of grieving the loss moving through that, through this reflection into actually going out and, and with clarity going after the next opportunity?

Michelle Schafer 22:21

Yeah. It's such a great question. it's interesting. I think a lot of people will think, working with a career coach, if I've been laid off, the first thing they're gonna wanna do is, help me fine-tune my resume, and actually, that is usually what people's first need is. They wanna do that right away. And fine-tuning the resume, updating it, like any of those things, is actually premature until you know- what your target is. if you don't have a clear idea of what your career target is, it's like standing in front of a dartboard with your eyes closed, and you're throwing those darts. Guess what? you're gonna completely not even miss the bullseye. You'll probably completely miss the board. my basement, Adam, with my two teenage boys. There's lots of holes in that wall with the dartboard that we have. but getting clarity on that first is really important, and I even take it a step back from that. So the first thing that I'll ask people when I'm working with somebody new, who has just experienced a job loss is, How are you doing?" what support do you have?" there are some people, Adam, that are so deeply ashamed that they've been let go that they don't tell people. I remember working with one person. She waited six months- to tell her adult children that she- had been let go. I heard of another guy that used to go to the library, every day because he wanted to give his wife the- The impression that he was leaving for work. Meanwhile, he was going to the library to look for work. So, so, like, really just starting, not on the, the practical, tactical aspects of a job search, but rather on the emotional side, is really important. I have some clients who they come to me and they're super happy. "I just got let go. I hated that place, and now I've-" got a severance." whoop-de-doo, now I gonna get to do something. the number of people who respond in that way are obviously smaller. the more common response is, yeah, having a really hard time. so it's, I wanna give people a chance to just, acknowledge how they're feeling, talk to me about what support is there, and ask them if they're comfortable, and if they want to, to talk about their experience. talk about the loss. name your emotions, because job loss is a loss. And, oftentimes, I would say in our society, job loss is what I'll call, disenfranchised grief that goes with that loss because, a lot of people don't understand the depth of the loss that can, uh, that can happen for some people, and they just say, "Oh, you'll find something new." "Don't worry. You're employable. You'll find something new." Which, yeah, the person is gonna find something new, but they just want somebody to say, God, that really sucks. Like, how are you?" not enough people really do that. so I do hold space for individuals. I'm a certified grief companion as well, which means that I very intentionally do create space for that conversation if the individual is comfortable and willing. then we will start to move into, what's next? what are they thinking about? What's waiting backstage in their life? I apply those five questions, those reflection questions, and there's more in my toolkit as well. In fact, I'm gonna leave your listeners, Adam, with a freebie that is, basically, I call it my career focus framework. It is a reflective document that allows you to put the answers to all those questions in one place. I get them to complete that first so that they have an understanding of what's important to them, what work, if they're being honest with themselves, does really give them energy. not necessarily what they were doing, in some cases. And then I help them identify some options, career options where they can find, what they're looking for. They can make sure that those needs are met. Then we do move into, the tactical stuff. building a job search plan which doesn't just involve looking online. So all listeners, if you have experienced a job loss and you are sending out hundreds of resumes a week- Do not do that, because it's, AI is screening out so many resumes right now. what's really important in a job search plan is relationships. Like reach out to people, connect, reconnect with people, explore possibilities at companies of interest. So I'll help, people, build out a networking plan, know where they need to look online, and also, engage with recruiters. search firms, headhunters, recruiters, you can call them what they, what you want, but they're all the same. They hold the bag on really interesting possibilities. and then some of the common things that I work with people on is helping them strengthen their resume, tell the right career story that's pointed to the jobs that they're looking for, preparing for interviews, responding to questions, negotiating offers, and building out their onboarding plan when they start something new. I can help with all of those things. But certainly the first steps are really just making sure that they have a chance to talk about how they're doing, and making sure that they do have support.

Adam Coelho 27:26

Yeah, that's so important. it's such a difficult thing to sit with, and can be very isolating, For me, when I went through it and, it was very rough at the end, and fortunately I had- the support of my wife and my family and my friends. But even still, it's okay, now I'm, have all this time. It's okay, what do I do with this? And- just I had to give myself space just to grieve the loss and the betrayal. I spent my whole career there, and I did great work. And I was, in my opinion, unjustly fired. but- it doesn't matter, right? It's just sit with the feelings of that before stepping into that next chapter. And so I think- this is a point here where it's like fi- financial independence and financial resilience is also really important in this- as well. And so just like you want to figure out what your vision for your life is and your, what lights you up and what you want to, what environment you want to be in, that reflection is important, but also you should be saving and investing and creating- some space between your income and your expenses for as long as you can to build up an emergency fund, to build up financial resilience and- Be on the path to financial independence, because that gives you runway and options, to figure out what's next, so you don't have to just take the first thing that comes along your path.

Michelle Schafer 28:43

Absolutely. Yeah, and what you're talking about there is about planning, right? It's about planning, making sure that you do have enough in the bank, that you are covering those expenses. And like, and I'm talking about planning for your career. The two really go so hand-in-hand. the other thing I'll offer there is, because maybe, maybe there are some listeners right now that say, "But Michelle, like, what you're talking about is the ideal gold standard. I lost my job, and I am in danger of not being able to pay my rent, or having to make decisions between buying groceries or something else." So, so what I'll offer any listeners who are in a really tight space right now, know that it is okay to take a job that maybe isn't the best fit for you initially, because you do need to meet those financial obligations. The thing I will offer though is don't stop there. Remember what it is that you're really striving for, remember what is really important to you, and make a commitment to yourself, and like attach a timeline to it as to when you want to be somewhere else. So, maybe it's, I'm gonna take this job. Yeah, it's not the best job, but it's gonna help me pay my rent and put food on the table, so I'm going to take it, but I want to be somewhere else in seven months. in seven months, I wanna be somewhere else that's more aligned to my career priorities, that's gonna pay me a bit more based on what my value is and what I bring to the table." So it's like making a commitment, "I'm going to accept this thing, but I'm not going to stop looking. I'm still going to, keep the lights on my job search, keep the flames alive in my networking fires." I think of them like, a campfire, Adam. if y- if you walk away from the fire, everything goes away, right? so you wanna still stay in touch with your network. You do still wanna be looking online. You still wanna be in touch with recruiters. Don't drop all that just because you have another job. The two can work together. Maybe you don't have as much time for looking for work when you've accepted something. But don't drop the commitment to yourself. two things can be true. You can find a new job, and- Find something that's more aligned for you down the road- and not separate yourself from what's really important. So I wanted to make that distinction because I do recognize there are a number of people who are in a really tough spot right now, especially if the job loss was a surprise, you thought that you were gonna be okay. know that career transition can have multiple levels to it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Adam Coelho 31:30

Yeah. Very good. All right, Michelle, let's switch gears into what I call the mindful fire final four. Okay? You ready? I'm

Michelle Schafer 31:36

ready.

Adam Coelho 31:37

All right. So the first question's all about envisioning, and I'm curious for you, what is your big vision for, say, three to five years out? If everything goes better than expected, you're having the impact in the world that you want to have, what is that big vision?

Michelle Schafer 31:51

that vision definitely involves travel. I would like to... Oh my gosh, I want to visit New Zealand. I want to go to Greece and Portugal. I want to take my boys and, possibly climb Mount Kilimanjaro again.

Adam Coelho 32:08

that- Again? I've done it once.

Michelle Schafer 32:09

Can you believe it? maybe again is maybe ambitious, but definitely to, to go there and just show them all the riches of Tanzania. yeah, I, I see, like, travel being big. the other part of my vision is, just continuing to give back and, for me, I see that, perhaps as men- mentoring and, like, people who are wanting to get into coaching. I've been doing a bit more work with students lately, and, and that's a possibility. perhaps it's, mentoring students to help them take charge of their career at an early stage. do things like get on LinkedIn and, and actually start to build a network. I can see there, there's a professional application, but certainly there's, some personal desires in there as well.

Adam Coelho 32:53

Love to hear that. Work is a part of your personal life, right? not, not the other way around. So, that's really great that you led with that. And when you go to Portugal, please let me know. I have a whole list of things, that, that I send to people because I- I'm Portuguese, and I have been many times, me and my brother and my wife, we've curated a list. and if you're listening to this and you're going to Portugal, reach out to me as well. I would love to share it with you as well. and if you go to Portugal, make sure to eat piri piri chicken. That's what I always tell people cause people- sometimes they go there, and they're like, "Oh, it's all about the seafood." Yes, the seafood is great, but the chicken is also world-class. So highly recommend that. so the second question is what piece of advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

Michelle Schafer 33:37

I would say, I would say really, like, have a plan. I say that to people who, who are looking for new work, but certainly, if, you think of it as like, like an off-ramp, from what you've experienced, in your career to something new, do you have a plan? I, I think of people who retire, and they're petrified. They're actually petrified of retirement because they haven't thought about it. They have no plan. so as part of that plan, think about, okay, if I'm gonna be financially independent, what does that mean then for my life? may- maybe there is, something you do want to work at once a week, that is part of your life. what does your social circle look like? What kind of activities are you gonna be part of? in what ways do you want to give back to your community? having a plan that incorporates all other aspects of your life, that way it makes taking those steps, a whole lot less daunting and a whole lot more exciting.

Adam Coelho 34:40

Yeah. I love that. that is the work that I do with people, so I- very much align with that, and I am of the mind that you need to be b- building that life now so that you can- figure out what you like, what you don't like, what lights you up, what takes energy from you, and that way when you get there, it's just, I'm just gonna continue walking down this path. I'm not- needing to figure out anything new. I can try anything that I want, but I already have a base of experience that I can lean on to step into this next chapter 'cause- I talk to people all the time. They are stuck in one more year syndrome. They're petrified of leaving because they don't know who- they'll be on the other side, and that's understandable took me needing to get pushed out to step into that next chapter. Fortunately, I had built a lot of the vision that I was moving towards, along the way, and that made it- a lot easier. But it's really important to do that along the way.

Michelle Schafer 35:32

Absolutely.

Adam Coelho 35:33

The third question is, what piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with meditation and/or mindfulness?

Michelle Schafer 35:39

that's a great question. And, it, is something I build into my work with clients as well, especially around interviews. and just, taking some mindful deep breathing, because, interviews of course stir up a whole lot of anxiety and nervousness- right? so I would say be open be open to it. I think there's a lot of preconceived notions which prevent people from maybe following that path or even just integrating some practices. I would say, be open to different possibilities and start small. I, on a regular basis, and it's simple. I, I use the Calm app, because there's such a variety of just different, you know, different individuals leading, mindfulness activities and meditations. start small. Do something for, like, two minutes. Two minutes, which, who can't spare two minutes in their day, right? To do anything. and you might find that, yeah, this is something that really helps me, and, but, but I hear all too often, "Oh, so now I have to, meditate for 20 minutes a day for five days a week," and then they fall off the trail really easily- because it's just, it's too much, it's not sustainable, it's overwhelming. So I say, as it relates to mindfulness and meditation, what's the tiniest first step that you can take to explore this? And- that just makes it a whole lot more accessible, I find.

Adam Coelho 37:08

Beautifully said. Absolutely. And the last question, Michelle, is how can people connect with you online, learn more about what you offer and the work that you're doing, and also grab that free resource you mentioned earlier?

Michelle Schafer 37:19

Absolutely. I've got a few free resources. my website is mschafercoaching.ca, where you can access a free chapter of my book, Cultivating Career Growth: Navigating Transitions With Purpose. Also, the free career focus framework. those will be in the show notes, so you'll be able to grab those. LinkedIn is also a great place to connect with me. I am on LinkedIn probably four to five times a week, writing about, job loss, career transition, exploring new paths, and building a job search plan. So please follow me. reach out and say that you heard me here on Adam's podcast, and, I'd love to have a conversation. I do offer complimentary, 30-minute conversations for anybody who's interested. So if you are listening, you're experiencing a job loss, and you just wanna have a conversation partner and just see if you're on the right track, reach out, and, I'd be happy to chat with you.

Adam Coelho 38:14

Beautiful. thank you so much, Michelle, for being here and sharing your wisdom and experience with the audience. It was a lot of fun.

Michelle Schafer 38:21

Thanks so much, Adam.