Living Your FI Vision Before You Reach the Number with Nic Ferry (ep. 242)

Adam Coelho 0:05

Welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast, a show about crafting a life you love and making work optional using the tools of mindfulness, envisioning, and financial independence. I'm your host, Adam Coelho, and I'm so glad you're here. Each episode of the Mindful Fire Podcast explores these three tools through teachings, guided meditations, and inspiring interviews with people actually living them to craft a life they love. If you're ready to start your Mindful Fire journey, go to mindfulfire.org/start and download my free envisioning guide. In just 10 minutes, this guide will help you craft a clear and inspiring vision for your life. Again, you can download it for free at mindfulfire.org/start. Let's jump into today's episode Nick, welcome to the "Mindful Fire" podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. It's great to be here, Adam. And I'm thrilled to have you of all people here for the first time I'm ever recording a podcast in a studio and not over Zoom. What a treat. We are here in the Kit Studios in New York City. Thank you to Kit for hosting us here for this interview. And the reason I'm so thrilled to have you here is because you were my first client, my first coaching client, and so thanks again for being here.

Nic Ferry 1:32

Thank you for having me.

Adam Coelho 1:33

So let's start with the big question. What has surprised you most about putting envisioning practices to work in your own life?

Nic Ferry 1:40

I think the quick answer is that they actually work. With my job as a physician with it feels like 50 years of being stuck in education, everything was objective, learned from a textbook, there is no such thing as this ethereal out there kind of thing or I think we talked about a couple times that woo-woo really had a little bit of difficulty when we first started working trying to buy in. We talked a lot about it on what this envisioning really was or what it really meant, and then as you worked with me more, as you coached me more, as you really helped me push those boundaries, actually getting to see that envisioning work.

Adam Coelho 2:13

Yeah, and how did it work? what showed up in your life?

Nic Ferry 2:16

First couple things that I saw was you had me read a couple books that really the ground principles in place, and I think it was "The Alchemist" and "The Gap and the Gain." And as just daily life happened, saw like little examples start to pop up that once you actually started paying attention, and that's what you helped me work on first just noticing those little differences in day-to-day life and just appreciating them. Then maybe weeks into working on those practices, started seeing the really big examples start to kick in. So I know that one that we talked about, and you really pushed me on this one, was when I was finishing up my time with the military. I was going to be moving from New Mexico up to the Pennsylvania area, and with my family situation, having children, having pets renting wasn't really an option, so we were looking to buy a house, and I really started on the frugal, the FI mindset, initially looking at, "Oh, here's what I can afford," or, "Here's the bare bones." Cause as a resident physician, like income's not necessarily that great, so it was really just trying to find something to survive, and you helped me push that to, "What do I actually want?" And all of a sudden it turned into a survive situation for residency, which anybody that knows physicians, residency's hard, to what do I really want life to look like? And then within, I think it was two weeks of you pushing me on that, I was able to message you back and be like, "Hey, like the house we talked about, the imaginary house that I never thought existed, all of a sudden is on the market. We have an offer in, and we're under contract." And it's just like this turn on a dime, all of a sudden, like this perfect house showed up. And it's like everybody talks about, like you start thinking about that red car, all of a sudden every time you're driving you see 10,000 red cars. Never would've found that house without the work with you. And that was one of the very first big examples. Then another one was after we got the house with the timeline that we were doing the move with the military is typically paid for, but because of our, again, family situation, we were gonna move early. We thought that full expense going from the Southwest to the Northeast was gonna be straight out of pocket. We're talking 15,000, 20,000, not chump change by any means. And just doing that work, putting that manifestations out there, having those conversations with the people in my life, I got a email from one of my patients randomly one day, and I was a operational medicine physician. So one of my patients was a pilot, randomly emails me out of the blue and he goes, "Hey, click on this link." And of course, in the military, we're taught never do that. But it turned out that it was this forgotten rule where you can apply for this exception to policy, and all of a sudden my 15, $20,000 move is being paid for because I qualify based off blah, blah, blah. And this envisioning where I never would've even blinked an eye as "Oh, yeah, I'm doing this. It's not gonna work." But you put me through those steps, helped me do that envisioning, and all of a sudden I could see what I wasn't gonna see.

Adam Coelho 4:48

Very cool. Yeah I love that, man. I love those examples and just it was shocking to me just how fast the things started to happen when you got clear on what you actually wanted. And I think what also stands out to me is that at first all of this stuff seemed really woo-woo, And I agree that some of these things can seem pretty woo-woo and out there when you're just getting clear on what you want and putting it out there. As I talk about planting the seeds based on the fact that our stories create our reality, and the thoughts and stories that we tell ourselves most often and the ones that we pay attention to are ultimately the ones that we take action towards and notice in our everyday experience and ultimately become our reality. And so I'm not a huge fan of the woo-woo stuff, that's why I talk about envisioning rather than manifestation because while I have no problem with manifestation, I don't really resonate with the idea of like raising your vibe and just, all you need to do is raise your vibe and a million dollars is gonna fall out of the sky and land on your doorstep. That has not been my experience. But understanding how your brain works and using that to your advantage by planting the seeds of what you want orients and primes your mind to be ready to see the opportunities as they present themselves. And so when we did this work, the first step, as you said, was training your attention, Through mindfulness meditation essentially just building up your ability to pay attention to the things that you want, and to direct your attention and to notice when it was wandering. That practice strengthens your self-awareness. It allows you to start noticing, Oh, hey, my attention is here. I'm thinking about this story again." And then you bring the mindfulness piece into it, which is a kind, curious awareness of what's happening inside, outside, that allows you to notice what stories you're telling yourself, And you had some pretty deeply entrenched, unhelpful stories around work that we can talk about in a minute, but that, you were s- aware of, but maybe not in terms of exactly what impact they were having on your life, and mindfulness is an incredible tool for that. And then envisioning is really choosing a new story to create a new reality. And so that was the work that we did next, which is what do you actually want, And I was just writing an email about a workshop I'm hosting next week, a Ask What's Possible workshop, which invites people to think about what they actually want. And in that email, I was saying most people, 95%-plus people on the path to financial independence never stop to ask, "What is it for? What do I actually want to do with the freedom that I'm creating with financial independence?" And so in that workshop and in the work that we did together, step one is build self-awareness. Who am I? What do I want? Step two is envisioning. Let's think big about what's possible for the one life I have to live, and the one that I'm building financial freedom to live on my own terms. And so I just love these examples and when we talked about the house, you were pretty conservative about what you wanted, Just like, Yeah, I just would love a house where, maybe I have a couple bedrooms maybe a yard." It's like, no, what do you actually want? And that's where I challenged you to say what you actually want, as I remember it, it was a big fenced-in yard for the dog multiple bedrooms for each of the kids and future kids, and you just had another baby. Congratulations. Yep. Thank you. And you wanted to be 20 minutes from where you were gonna be working, the hospital where you're gonna be doing your residency. Those are the things that I remember. And then two weeks later, I got a message from you saying, You're never gonna believe this. I got a house that's 20 minutes from the office, has enough bedrooms," I think it was, like, four bedrooms. Yep. Four bedrooms, big fenced-in yard, and it's un- unbelievable, and you got it, It was a pretty crazy housing market during that time and continuing, and so the fact that you were able to get that is a testament to knowing what you wanted, so when you spotted it, you acted on it immediately. And I think you were out there pretty quickly after that to go see it and make sure and everything like that,

Nic Ferry 8:46

And just for frame of reference this was 2023, so still on that upswing from COVID. And like you said we thought we were gonna end up with 1,800 square feet, built in 1910, still with the oil heater, like, all that stuff.

Adam Coelho 8:58

Yeah.

Nic Ferry 8:59

No garage, street parking. And like you said, we ended up with they even miscalculated the square footage. We ended up with 3,200 square feet because of the finished basement, this massive fenced yard, four bedrooms, two-car garage, 20 minutes from the hospital. Couldn't have asked for better. And on top of all of that, one of the things we were not really looking at was the school district, 'cause our kids were the age that we weren't gonna focus on that quite yet, and we accidentally ended up in a school district that is absolutely amazing. So it was just everything fell into place once we actually opened up to look for what was out there. So exactly as you said.

Adam Coelho 9:31

That's awesome, dude. And if you hadn't done that work to think about what you actually wanted, what would you have been paying attention to?

Nic Ferry 9:37

We would've found the bare minimum, gone exactly off y- like you said, with the financial independence mindset. We were going to find something that fit those mile markers, 'cause before I worked with you, I honestly had never thought about any of this. I was three, four years into my FI journey, where I'd finally found financial literacy and was starting to work on that, and before we talked, had never once considered what do I actually want out of this. It was just, how do I save more money?

Adam Coelho 10:02

Yeah. And I think that's something that so many people on the path to FI fall into. It's easy. It's easy to do. The math is the math, And the allure of when I get to this number, everything will be better, everything will be figured out, and I can live life however I wanna live it. That's very alluring. And it is true, but what I found, having been on the path, reaching financial independence and stepping into the next chapter, if you don't have a- an idea of what you want until you get there... If you- What's the

Nic Ferry 11:44

point?

Adam Coelho 11:44

If you don't have an idea of where you're going, you're gonna reach your number because the math is the math, and then you're gonna find yourself lost and stuck, and even a lot of people get depressed. And I can speak from my experience, like I had an idea of what I wanted, and I didn't get to choose the timing of my exit from Google, where I had my whole career. But I had an idea of where I was going, and that felt empowering, I was stepping into this next chapter that I had been testing and experimenting with for years and years. And I'll tell you, even knowing that, it's still a t- a big transition and it's still a challenge, And, I think part of that is that I chose something that is hard to do, and I didn't even think about how hard it was to build a business. But I'm so glad that I had the vision to build financial independence, to step into this chapter with a clear vision of where I wanted to go And the financial runway to do it in my own time and way. And it's not to say everything has been easy, it's been extremely difficult and it's taken a lot longer than I thought it would take. But if I step back and look at my life now, I'm living the life that I envisioned for many years. And doesn't mean that it's perfect, and doesn't mean that it's finished, but I'd be in a lot worse shape had I started this work when I reached my number and left work than having started it way ahead of time.

Nic Ferry 13:09

And I think that really hits on something that I can never repay you for making me do the work on, is actually appreciating the work that goes into this. 'Cause, and you kinda hinted on it earlier, I was definitely a workaholic before I started working with you. I was raised that hard work, that outcomes define you or is something you should strive for. And, like, I've had a job since I was nine years old, so I wasn't scared of work or anything like that. Like, money I was comfortable with. I didn't know anything about it. But working hard was something I was raised on. My parents taught me that was something important. But I never really put the metrics in or the understanding in, what am I working towards? So that workaholic, like, my job was technically 7:00 to 5:00 when I was active duty, but now I was coming home and I was working. As soon as I got home, I'd do a couple more hours. On the weekends when I was off, I was still working, because I thought that was my value. But you really put me through the steps to figure out that it's not how much work you do, but you can work harder less and really find your true value, and I think that's a huge piece of this.

Adam Coelho 14:11

Yeah. It is. It's like, Where are you headed with this? And not just, like, what is the achievement or the accomplishment that you're trying to get to, but, like, how do you wanna live? How do you want life to feel? And that's something that I've been wrestling with recently. It's like, I have this big vision. I wanna be a sought-after speaker and facilitator. I wanna, help unlock this level of freedom for people in their lives using the financial freedom that they're creating. But how do I wanna do it, I have been racing towards that and just, like, essentially letting that be my sole focus. And what I mean by that is I was on Choose FI again, then I had a bunch of people join my email list, then they went through the welcome sequence I had set up, and it brought conversations. And that's all awesome. But I essentially made it so that anyone could book on my calendar at any time Looking back, that's not how I wanna live. I love these conversations. They're so fun, they're so energizing, and I can tell that I'm making an impact even when people aren't a good fit or the timing isn't right or whatever it might be. But do I wanna have that rejection, to call it what it is, every day of the week? No. I started feeling terrible, and that bleeds into other areas of my life, And then I realized wait a second, I'm so focused on this, I'm not as much focused on this goal of being a great father and being, as I call it, patient, curious, and kind with those I love, Speaking of the affirmations that we did together, th- that's the one that I'm focused on. that balance of too much on the work side takes away from the family side and just doesn't feel great. And so I'm in the process of kind of rethinking how I go about this and what my mindset is towards these conversations, because at some point it becomes a little bit like my worth is tied up in people wanting to work with me. but at the same time, it's like, How do I wanna spend my time regardless of the outcome, And so kinda getting back to what we worked on, your whole identity was tied up in having a good work ethic and doing a great job and and it really sounded like you were so focused on the work that you let it consume yourself and you weren't even seeing... Like, it was never good enough, And you weren't able to see the impact and all of the good coming back. And I think one of the things that we worked on together is recognizing the impact that you're having on the patients that you're working with and your impact on your family at home So I'm curious, walk us through that shift from how you went from that workaholic mindset to what it eventually became.

Nic Ferry 16:44

So you're 100% right. I was stuck in the objective, direct acknowledgment of my productivity. So for our group, we had quarterly awards, we had these extra things, we had the opportunities for coins and such to recognize our top performers. So I thought that I had to earn those to prove my worth- and that by going above and beyond, I would eventually earn that, and then my all- everything, all those extra hours, all the hard work would be paid off in this physical representation of my value. But I lost track that my actual value is my family. I love my job. I have a responsibility to my patients, but I also have a re- responsibility to my kids, and as you said, now I have a third one. I really need to figure out how to keep that focus because if I fail them the rest of it doesn't matter. But starting off, like I was stuck in that mindset, and then I wasn't getting that recognition, so it really started to hit me, kinda like you said, that rejection is like I'm putting in all these hours. I'm going h- home. I'm the la- first person in the office. I'm the last person out of the office. I'm working at home. I'm working on the weekends. I'm sending emails that aren't answered for three days because it's a four-day weekend, and I'm still working and nobody else is, and still there's no recognition. Yeah. And I was waiting for that award, that coin, that piece of paper to say that what I was doing was right, that I was worth it. And you helped me refind that it was really so many other opportunities. That patient that was able to look back and say, "Hey, I haven't talked to anybody about this for 10 years because I didn't trust my doctor. I wanna talk about it with you." And like actually recognizing what that meant rather than just, "Oh yeah, let's talk about it," is, Oh," like I actually did something right. Like I was doing a good job. I just couldn't see it. And it took a lot of work. I would not have been able to do it on my own.

Adam Coelho 18:27

Yeah. No it's so important to recognize those little real signs that you're making an impact, and it's easy to overlook them, And it's so easy to just move on to the next thing, The next accomplishment, the next promotion, the next financial milestone, whatever it is, and what you were able to do is kinda reorient your mind and refocus your attention on a different way of being with the job. And I know one of the practices that we did together that I think had a big impact was the mindset affirmations practice.

Nic Ferry 19:01

Absolutely.

Adam Coelho 19:01

The big thing we first worked on was that workaholic mindset. And one of the things that I remember we worked on is when I'm at work, I'm at work, and when I'm at home, I'm at home. And you're gonna give your all in both settings because it's important to you to do a good job. But the work one was, 90% and- Overreaching. It was overreaching. It was kinda crowding out the other side and and that's-- I'm experiencing that, over the last couple months myself. so tell me about how you went about practicing that and what impact it had.

Nic Ferry 19:32

As we talked about during my time with you, I am not a good student. As most people know, doctors are horrible patients, and it turns out- Oh, yeah. I was not the greatest patient with mindfulness either, and it's still a daily work for me. Back then, it took me a while, going back to the woo-woo, like it took me a while to get through that mindset of this was a little bit more than just 10 minutes of quiet that I could spend studying or doing this or doing that. And it took a lot of work to get there, and I find myself still slipping back, and I still have those meditations, those affirmations on the home screen of my phone cause I still find myself slipping back. In the last couple months, I've crossed another FI milestone that I was looking forward to. I just got accepted for a fellowship in anesthesia and just got accepted for an abroad opportunity that only 10 people nationwide get to go on. So I was like, I have all these objective measures that I could be like, "Hey, I'm making it. I'm doing great." And then my son goes, "When I get big," and he's super into race cars right now, so he's been very focused on, "I'm gonna get a job to pay for a race car." It's like, okay, that's cute. That's fun. That's funny. But then he goes, "And I'm gonna work really long hours and be at home really little, just like Daddy." I was like- Oof. Oh. It's like-

Adam Coelho 20:38

Gut punch.

Nic Ferry 20:38

Yeah. opened up that affirmation again that night and been doing it a lot more cause I'd gotten in another slump where I wasn't doing it as much 'cause I was in a good spot, I thought. And then kids have a really good way of reminding you like, Hey, this isn't a one-time thing." This is a lifetime, and without that community good luck."

Adam Coelho 20:54

Yeah. Man, that, that is a gut punch, and I've had my fair share of those recently as well, just like me showing up, with my kids without patience and short-tempered there's this expression the way you show up in one area of your life is the way you show up in all areas of your life, and I think that's true. And, my lack of confidence and progress and whatever that I thought I was having, which is funny because going back to the book you mentioned, "The Gap and the Gain," I had made a ton of progress, I started the year moving from focusing on selling corporate workshops to wanting to come back to the podcast and the mission of connecting people with themselves, each other, and their biggest vision for life, and that means focusing on the coaching. I had no leads, I had this vision of wanting to be on Choose FI again. I had been on three years prior, and I was on Choose FI. Then I had 1,600 people sign up for my FI Life Jumpstart, which if you're listening to this, you can get at mindfulfire.org/start.

Nic Ferry 21:51

And can we take a minute just to recognize how big a number 1,600 is? It's

Adam Coelho 21:53

a lot of people, I'm in a community, a business community focused on podcast guesting. Nobody gets 1,600 leads from a from a podcast appearance, and I did. And I had maybe 30 conversations or so with people and I wanted calls, I wanted all these things, and then I got them and I was immediately like, I don't have this," This is a lifelong practice, and that's where mindfulness comes in. You need to have the mindfulness to see what is with a kind, curious awareness, You could have resisted that comment from your son as, No, I'm not. I'm here. I love you," blah, blah, blah. But you saw it as, Oh-

Nic Ferry 22:31

I got work to do

Adam Coelho 22:32

I got work to do. I am falling into old patterns. What can I do? Oh, I can go back to this m- mindset affirmation." And it's really powerful. So just, if you're listening to this the practice itself is Using the FI Life Jumpstart to get clear on what is your big vision for your FI life and the life that you wanna live, and then the mindset affirmations practice is What mindsets or beliefs do you want to embody that will move you towards that vision little by little? And then once you get clear on what those are, so in your case, it was, When I'm at work, I'm at work. When I'm at home, I'm at home." Another one that I practice is, "The world is abundant with opportunity." And you say that in your mind or out loud or both, then you visualize how is that true in the past. Experiences where you did that, where you showed up in that way. And then how is that true in the present? Examples of how that's true in your life right now. Then you project into the future, how will this be true in the future? examples of yourself taking action of coming home and, transitioning into being fully present with your family. And over time, as you do this, you're giving your brain evidence, you're planting the seeds in your mind of how this is already true, and then you just naturally start to notice more and more examples of how this is true. And then when you have opportunities to act in that way, in alignment with those beliefs, you're more likely to do it. Incredibly powerful. It's been a absolute game changer in my life.

Nic Ferry 23:59

And you make it sound so simple.

Adam Coelho 24:00

It is simple, but it's not easy.

Nic Ferry 24:02

No, not easy at all.

Adam Coelho 24:03

It's not easy, and I'm, trying to do this right now. I'm trying to do this with that belief I said that I'm patient, curious, and kind with those I love. And, I have a few examples of that in my mind when I do this practice, but the more I do it, the more examples I will have, because there are examples, I have a lot of examples of how I'm impatient with my kids and how I'm frustrated often and these things, It's easy to focus on the negative, but when we do that, We are planting and watering the seeds of those things as well.

Nic Ferry 24:33

And it goes back to the gap in the game, like you mentioned, like realizing- Maybe seeing those faults now, just imagine if we hadn't done the work for the last five, 10 years.

Adam Coelho 24:41

Exactly. And that's I think, where most people on the path to FI miss the boat, They think that once they get to that FI number, they're just gonna have all this time to figure all this stuff out and to do the work then. But what they have instead is just an a vacuum in their life that is filled with thinking, And our minds have a negativity bias since we evolved from people who heard a rustling in the bushes and, the ones who thought that was a bunny, they died, When it was a tiger. The ones who thought it was a tiger and ran the hell out of there, they're the ones who we evolved from. And so we have this negativity bias, and- If we have this vacuum of time where we're no longer working, we're gonna do a lot of thinking, and that thinking might not be so useful. And so we need to do this work. We need to give

Nic Ferry 25:28

ours-

Adam Coelho 25:28

ourselves a direction to move towards and evidence of how this, these mindsets and beliefs are true, and the more we do it, the more easy it will become.

Nic Ferry 25:37

Absolutely.

Adam Coelho 25:38

Yeah, so that mindset affirmations practice is incredibly powerful. There are some meditations on the podcast feed. You can just search mindset affirmations, and you can be guided through a practice like this. I created a bespoke one for you that you mentioned you still have on your home screen. When people do the Fire Starter coaching program with me, one of the things I offer them is bespoke meditations, both mindset affirmations and also the visualization of the vision that we come up with together. if the thoughts and stories you tell yourself are like seeds, this is like putting fertilizer on the seeds so that they can grow even faster. And I've had countless experiences with these practices that have changed my life. when I spoke at the CEO of Google's leadership conference, that started as just a simple idea and I visualized that over and over again, and it happened. Same thing with retiring at 36 and the room that most people who have listened to this podcast where I usually record, the sunroom at my house. All of these things started as simple visualization exercises. So pretty powerful stuff. But let's switch gears and talk about the next step in envisioning, Okay. Step one is develop mindfulness, develop self-awareness of what are the stories I'm currently telling myself, One that you had was that work is the most important thing. hard work is important, but it might not be the most important thing, and it might not be the most important thing at a stage in your life, As you started to have a family, it became clear that you were putting too much emphasis on hard work is important, and family is important started to become a bigger aspect of your life.

Nic Ferry 27:12

And really just redefining what hard work was- because I was really stuck in the quantity over quality.

Adam Coelho 27:18

Yeah. And where to place that hard work. Exactly. That's a great point. Cause yeah, absolutely. Like I'm working really hard and I'm was stuck in the I'm not seeing the outputs of my efforts. I'm not seeing the accolades. I'm not seeing the accomplishments and I'm putting all this hard work in. It's wait a second. I'm disappointed because I'm looking at that as the whole universe of where I need to put my hard work, but I need to put my hard work into my family as well, and I need to do the hard work of Being more patient, not reacting, creating space with mindfulness in those tense situations. And putting too much emphasis on not having the outputs in my professional life was causing me to forget that. And so I needed to remind myself of these things. Let's talk about the next step in using envisioning to create the life that you want and start living the life that you want. And so that is thinking big about what you actually want, I probably made you quite uncomfortable a few times when I was like, Not big enough, man. what do you actually want?"

Nic Ferry 28:16

I was pretty sure at some point working with you, you just had that recorded because, Yeah you got to say quite a bit on, "Eh, you're not actually thinking big. Let's actually try a little bit bigger." 'Cause when we started working, I was a HPSP medical student going through med school with the Air Force, and the military chose that I was going to do part of my training, pause it, go do primary care, and then eventually go back to residency. So I had this nice big gap to really think about what that big picture, what that career was gonna be, and I got stuck in, "Oh yeah, that's gonna be step A, B, C, and then we'll figure out the rest later." And you kept pushing. You're like, "No, like, what does A actually mean? What does B actually mean?" And you helped me figure that out, that initially we talked about I was gonna get that residency, I was gonna get at a program where another big piece that I, you helped me discover was the quality or value of the people that I worked for, not just another cog in the wheel, but actually seeing a little bit more of that value in your workplace. So helping find that right spot where I fit in. And then initially the plan was during residency, I was gonna shoot to be a chief resident, which again, I think was falling a little bit, now reflecting back, I was falling back into that trap of- I wanted that objective measurement of I was being recognized- I was being seen as I was a top performer, like I deserve that. But then slowly stepping that back and as we went through this, as I kept doing the envisioning throughout the time on, oh yeah, I'm still supposed to be leaving work at work and home at home. I'm not doing right by my kids if I do X, Y, Z, and ultimately I chose that chief resident. Yeah, that would've looked great on a resume. That would've made me feel fantastic. But if I even had the chance of being selected, that's a whole 'nother conversation. It wasn't going to be what was right for me. And we've already about my kids saying "Hey, Daddy works a lot and he's rarely home." That's being a resident. Being a chief resident would've been that much more- and I would've not been the father I wanted to be. So just going through those steps, continuing the practice, continuing that envisioning to make sure I was working towards the right goal and not getting lost.

Adam Coelho 30:13

Yeah. That's huge. Yeah, I challenge you to think really big and that chief resident, that's a huge accomplishment, and yet when you got closer to that, you realized it was at odds with your desire to be a present father. And so you had the mindfulness and the awareness that, Huh, this doesn't seem to fit as much as I thought it would," and then you made a choice, That's the thing about this. A lot of people think, and I've thought myself, that once I s- do this work and I think this-- once I set this vision or this goal it's set in stone and I have to march towards it. That's sometimes... It's like an all or nothing sort of thinking. But that's not how life is, We take a step, we realize, Do I like the path I'm on or not?" And then I can take a step to a different path. And you realized, Wait a second, now that I'm in this and I have this opportunity to go after this thing, it's not what I want, and so I'm gonna take a different path." And so one of the other things that was really important to you when you thought, I'm years in the future. had a successful residency. I'm out of there, and I'm now doing this." a big aspect of what you wanted was to be able to go internationally and make an impact in lower income and developing countries that don't have the same resources that we do, and you wanted to be able to go on the ground and provide training and care for people. And I remember you coming back to me when you started residency, and you had this chance encounter with somebody.

Nic Ferry 31:41

So that kind of the opposite direction of stepping back from work, this one I went a little bit deeper with that envisioning was, as you said, part of my goal was this medicine abroad, this low resource medicine, this in-need medicine, 10,000 different terms for it. Basically somewhere to have a little bit bigger of an impact, not just doing those routine elective things for people here, but actually going to places where they don't have anything. They need that help, whether it's resources, that's teaching, that's money, whatever it happens to be, trying to make a little bit bigger impact because that is something I value. So when I started residency, we had talked about this. This had been something I had considered, had developed that interest, that desire in the military with a couple abroad opportunities. And during our orientation lectures, we just so happened to have one of the attendings talk to us, and he happened to mention, Oh, hey, by the way, I go to this country in Africa every year. If anybody's interested in a couple years we can talk then." And Doing that envisioning, doing that mindfulness, planted those seeds, and went and had that conversation right away with both him as well as my program director on, "Hey, I'm two years ahead. I know that. This is my goal for the next three years is I wanna be on that trip." And then I not only had those conversations right away, so I got him to be my mentor during my residency.

Adam Coelho 32:56

Incredible.

Nic Ferry 32:56

But then went above and beyond, and I started practicing that mindset in my daily medical practice. I had one attending make fun of me because we were doing IV fluids, and it's a 1,000 milliliters, so one liter bag, and I'm focused on getting those last five little drops in. And he goes, he's like, "What are you doing? It's five drops out of 10,000 drops. Switch the bag. We're good. Move on." He's like, "Why are you doing this?" I was like, Oh, I wanna practice low resource medicine, so I'm making a point of every single day, every little action, even if it seems silly, being mindful of what I'm wasting. Because at some point, that drop's gonna matter." It does not matter in downtown Philadelphia whatsoever, but someplace it might. So if I can practice now and just make it a natural habit, cool He pulled me aside later and he goes, "Hey, I was formerly in this organization. If you're actually interested in this abroad medicine," because this was just planting a seed, like I had no idea this was gonna happen. He goes, "If you're actually interested in this, next year, go to this website, apply for this, and it's an abroad opportunity." And oh, by the way, most of these abroad medicine, like you're paying your way, so as a resident where you make 60, 70 a year, like not a lot for a physician, like trying to spend five, 10,000 to go for a couple weeks abroad- Sure is a lot of money. This is not a week, this is not two weeks, this is four weeks, and all the expenses or the majority of the expenses are paid to- because you're helping teach that community." So followed up on that, kept my foot in the door. Now I'm going to Vietnam for four weeks next year. And it was just literally being in his mind, silly with these five drops of saline, and all of a sudden I find an opportunity that now I get to go teach a community that needs help.

Adam Coelho 34:25

That's incredible, man. Yeah, I didn't even know about that example of practicing in the moment every day, thinking about what they need in those communities, and essentially just aligning your beliefs, your mindsets, and your actions for that, and keeping that vision of wanting to go abroad and do this work front of mind. It was incredible when we were working together and you had that opportunity to meet with him and kinda build that relationship, and then have him as your mentor. It's just one thing leads to another. H- if you hadn't thought about that, yeah, like you might have thought at some point, "Oh yeah, that'd be cool." But like- You made it so important in your mind that you were ready and attacked it when the opportunity came up, and now you're doing it, And are you doing another one as well or...? So

Nic Ferry 35:09

that's termed a fellowship, but it's really just a abroad opportunity with that name.

Adam Coelho 35:13

Okay.

Nic Ferry 35:13

I also came into residency thinking like, I'm a little bit of a non-traditional medical student at this point. So I'm a little bit up there in age compared to the average resident, and especially with my family, most people aren't crazy enough to try to have kids during residency with the time commitment. I assumed pretty safely that I was not gonna do any extra training. I was gonna do my four years, and I was gonna go practice medicine. But planting those seeds, being mindful of my day-to-day, actually feeling what was going on I discovered a love of obstetric anesthesia. Extremely unexpected but the seed was there, so I took a shot and planted those seeds, and now I'm doing an obstetric fellowship next year also. And with following that path, just listening to some of the extra podcasts and webinars about, "Hey, here's why to consider this," or, "Here's what it means," actually found, and this helped with the fellowship to Vietnam also one of the speakers at one of those webinars was somebody that did that fellowship in the past. So that was an extra kind of step into, Hey, here's this world if you wanna take down that path." And he acted as an extra mentor for me also applying for this. Then through all of that and through these other connections that I made through my daily practice, it was recommended that I reach out to another physician in downtown, and when I spoke to them, they're like, "Oh, after you do that, here's these next couple opportunities that you need to start working on." So it's just all these little things start tying back together, just that awareness or that mindfulness of the environment around you, cause once you open a door, like it's really hard to shut it, it turns out.

Adam Coelho 36:37

That's incredible. Yeah, it's so cool to see how one thing leads to the other, leads to the other and you are living the vision that you set out a few years ago.

Nic Ferry 36:46

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 36:46

Yeah. And you have three kids now, and you live in the house 20 minutes from work, and you have these international opportunities. It's awesome, man. Congratulations. I'm so pumped for you.

Nic Ferry 36:55

Thank you. Yeah. My wife's a little less excited about it with the newborn at home, but we're tackling that one day at a time.

Adam Coelho 37:00

And when did you say you're going?

Nic Ferry 37:02

February.

Adam Coelho 37:03

You got some time. Yeah. That's so cool, man. it's a testament to the work that you put in and keeping your vision in mind and taking those steps. And I mean- Obviously, y- you're on the path to financial independence, You are still building, and obviously you're very much at the start of your career as a physician. In this new chapter as an anesthesiologist. And so I guess, how do you think about the path to financial independence in your life and with everything you have going on?

Nic Ferry 37:31

If you had asked me back in 2020 when I first read my first couple books, and some of the first ones were "The Simple Path to Wealth," "The White Coat Investor," just being in the community I am- Of course it was going to be a 60, 70% savings cause that's my first impression. And again, I was raised, when you do something, you do it as hard as you can. And that was what I thought it was gonna be, and that push for five, 10 years and we'll be there. And with the work you helped me do, with taking that step back, with refocusing what my priorities actually are, like, we're well on the path just because of paying attention to it. Things you measure get done well. Of

Adam Coelho 38:05

course.

Nic Ferry 38:06

But we're actually being a lot more mindful on that. Instead of just going for straight FIRE or Fat FIRE or whatever term you wanna aim for, we took a step back and we're like, "Actually, that doesn't fit our lifestyle values or our family values." Like, Slow-FI, Coast-FI, or even better, just putting them all together and calling it Mindful FI, like, that's what's right for us. So we're also investing in that mindset to plant those seeds. So we actually found an event for Slow FI just to help reinforce that, find us a better community, rather than getting stuck in either the typical physician lifestyle on, Hey, I've delayed all these things. I deserve it now"- yeah or the opposite side and going Fat FIRE and saving 70, 80%. neither of those were right for us. So instead, finding a career path, a lifestyle where I actually get to live my values, I get to put my kids first, I get to put my family first. Like, we're intentionally doing that.

Adam Coelho 38:58

That's awesome, dude. Yeah. That's really important. And yeah, I think it's-- there's all these people telling you how you should live your life and what the right way to be a parent and to be on the path to FI and all this, and I kinda hate that, i'm trying, I'm tr- like... And it's weird for me being in this, I don't know, whatever I am, influencer, blah, blah, blah, podcaster, whatever world. It's like you kinda feel like you gotta have it all together and figure it out and, like, you're, like, telling people the way to be. I have no interest in that. I'm here just to share my path and create an opportunity for other people to share what's working for them and what's not working. Because like I said earlier, I'm on this path, I'm living the vision that I wanted, and There are things I love about it, and there are things that are very challenging about it and that I'm still figuring out, and I think that's always gonna be the case, just like the people who think, "When I get to FI, everything will be great." I thought when I'm an entrepreneur in my own time and my own way, everything will be great, and it turns out it's still hard. And being a parent, really hard. Yeah. Keeping your cool with kids who don't listen and don't care what you have to say, pretty challenging.

Nic Ferry 40:06

Oh, God, every day with them is teaching me something new. It's amazing. Yeah.

Adam Coelho 40:09

That's what it is, man. You have a great perspective on life and that's what I'm trying to embody as well, just what can I learn from this situation? And I'm figuring it out, So I just absolutely love the, the progress that you've made in your life, in your career, in your family life, and how you continue to implement these practices in your life and and see the results of doing that work. I'm curious, You're a few years out from us working together in the Fire Starter program. Looking back what are your thoughts on going through that experience?

Nic Ferry 40:40

honestly, the easiest way to put it thank God I did it. The value for what we did, and as uncomfortable as you made me, the value I cannot second guess a moment in my life. Putting that work in then, especially back when I was a lot more eight to five type job going into residency if I had not done the work then, my true priorities would've gotten lost, and that's my kids, that's my family, that's my wife. And without doing that work before getting to residency that you helped me do I don't know where I would be today, let alone what the future would look like. So without that, I don't think there's much else to discuss.

Adam Coelho 41:15

That's powerful, man, and I'm so glad and I'm grateful to you as well for being the first person to take me up on it and to do the work with me and refine things and actually doing the work and seeing the impact, It's one thing to know these things. It's another thing to actually put in the work and to report back with the impact that it's having in your real life.

Nic Ferry 41:35

And I was definitely hesitant. I'd never done anything like coaching before, and the price tag caused a little bit of shock initially, and I was like, "Ah, I can do this work on my own. I taught myself financial literacy. I can teach myself mindfulness." And again, looking back, I don't regret it for a second. I'm glad I took that jump.

Adam Coelho 41:52

Yeah. I'm glad to hear that 'cause it's, yeah, it's certainly an investment. It's an investment in yourself, and what I often think about is

Nic Ferry 41:58

I mean,

Adam Coelho 41:58

It's hard to invest in yourself. It's hard for me to invest in myself, to hire someone to help me with the podcast or to work on the email sequence. All these things, like investing in myself feels weird. Something breaks in the house, I have to do it, But actually "Oh, I'm gonna invest in myself, and then I'm gonna have to do the work to get the result that I want," that's a little scary.

Nic Ferry 42:17

That was definitely a little bit of the reframe I got to too, was I was like, "Ah, we're just gonna spend this money and blah." Like I could buy self-help books. I could spend time. But looking back, like it was such a little amount of time that you worked with me overall compared to how much, like hundreds of hours it would've taken to get anywhere near the same progress. Like it was so much better having an expert, a coach, somebody actually there on my team to help guide me.

Adam Coelho 42:41

Yeah. And I think one of the big things that I bring to the table with this is

Nic Ferry 42:45

like,

Adam Coelho 42:45

I'm gonna call you on your BS.

Nic Ferry 42:47

Oh, yeah.

Adam Coelho 42:47

I'm gonna call you when you're thinking too small.

Nic Ferry 42:50

It's like the fish in water. I think the the parable goes- Yeah old fish swims by the two young fish and says, "How's the water?" And they're like, "What's water?" That was kinda me before I worked with you, is I didn't know what was my daily experience kind of thing. And having that, more experienced individual help point that out, help point out what reality was, like that really opened my eyes and moved it forward a lot faster.

Adam Coelho 43:10

Yeah. It really is that. It's someone who's kinda pointing a mirror at you to help you see what you can't see on your own, because you're too in the water of your own life. And I'm so glad to hear that it was helpful. I'm blown away by the progress that you've made in all of this, and it's so awesome to see.

Nic Ferry 43:29

Thank you. Yeah.

Adam Coelho 43:30

And so I guess what would you say to someone who's considering working with me in the Fire Starter program?

Nic Ferry 43:35

It's been awesome watching you go from that initial work with me being your first coachee, mentee, whatever the word is to all the different opportunities you now have on the table, be it the weekly Mindful Fire group which has been fantastic even though with, again, hospital life I've only gotten to attend a few, versus the short coaching programs versus the workshops versus this versus that. Like you have so many opportunities. If somebody was actually considering it now, why not take the leap? There was so many things I could've done to improve myself. I'm so happy that I did something to take that step forward and make my life a little bit better. That if you're thinking about it, take that leap. What's the worst thing? Doesn't work? If you have that thought, if you have that consideration of, "Hey, I need this," you probably need it.

Adam Coelho 44:22

Yeah. I think one thing that stood out from what you said, you could have done this on your own, I thought I could. You thought you could. Maybe you could have, but how much longer would it have taken? How much time would you have wasted going down the wrong path? And that's true of all of us, I had another person join me in the Fire Starter program Carissa, and she said, "If I hadn't joined this program, it would've taken me two to three years to have done this." And you were at a point in your life where you were looking at the next chapter of residency, knowing that if you didn't do this work now, you would've been swept up in the crazy schedule and the demands of the work, and very real considerations that would've prevented you from doing this work and would've swept your real priorities to the side. And that's true of a lot of people, A lot of people are stuck in this one more year syndrome. They're looking at this next chapter that they've worked so long and so hard to build this financial freedom, and yet they're hesitant to spend a little bit of money or do a little bit of work, or put themself in an uncomfortable position to actually figure out what do I want and to have the support to move forward towards that.

Nic Ferry 45:31

how many opportunities would I have missed?

Adam Coelho 45:33

Exactly. And that's the thing. It all starts with what do you actually want, and thinking bigger about what's possible. And and the other thing is just I always think about this. It's like with any investment that I wanna make in myself that I hesitate on, it's say it's a couple thousand dollars that I need to spend. I'm hesitating, but my net worth is going up or down by multiples of that every day because I'm fortunate enough to have saved and invested a bunch of money. I don't freak out when my net worth drops by $50,000 in a day, So why would I not invest in myself-

Nic Ferry 46:07

And see where it goes

Adam Coelho 46:08

To see where it goes, I'm still working on this myself, a-and and I know that, the people who are considering this are naturally frugal, and that's why we've gotten to this point. But I think there's a point at which we need to think about ourselves as an investment, and what better investment could we have than in getting clear on what we actually want and having a set of proven practices to move us towards that little by little.

Nic Ferry 46:33

And I have to say, as much as the expert that you are, the background that you bring to this was invaluable to my growth, my experience with this. Actually seeing you go through the work during our conversations just made me trust the process- that much more. Yeah. 'Cause it was- Yeah here's this person that has been doing mindfulness, doing these meditations for what? Decade, two decades?

Adam Coelho 46:51

A y- yeah, about a decade at that point, yeah.

Nic Ferry 46:53

And yet could still see you, and you would talk about "Here's what I'm doing to continue that work." Like it wasn't that, "Oh, here's this person that has it perfected." It's, Here's where it can take you, and here's what else can still be done." Like you were s- taking those steps with me throughout the journey. Yeah. Made me trust it even more.

Adam Coelho 47:08

That is good to hear because as I was trying to say before, like being in this like guru spot, even though I hate that, I don't think of myself as that at all, it feels like I should have it all figured out, and then when I you know, have these challenges of like, I'm letting anyone from the internet book any time on my calendar, and I'm spending my whole week getting rejected, and it feels like crap. It's like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about at all." This is the work. I am living the work, and I'm just a little bit ahead of the people that I'm offering this opportunity to, and that's fine. As we talked about before, this is a lifelong practice. This is not something you figure out and then everything is rosy from there on. Life is gonna have ups and downs, and having these practices of mindfulness, of self-compassion, of envisioning and a clear vision of where I'm trying to go is so much more helpful than just wandering through the wilderness, so I appreciate you saying that.

Nic Ferry 48:02

Absolutely.

Adam Coelho 48:03

Yeah and as I said before, like the first step to all of this is thinking bigger about what's possible for your life. Most people on the path to financial independence never even stop to ask themselves that question. And so I'm really excited that this Friday August 14th I'm going to be hosting a workshop called Ask What's Possible, where people will come learn what the practice of envisioning is all about, the neuroscience that makes it work, and to give themself the opportunity to set aside all the constraints, all the ideas of what's reasonable, rational, responsible, all these things, just put them in a little box, set it to the side and dream really big, That's the work we did together. That's where you came up with the idea to go abroad and share your training and skills with people who really need it. That's where you had the idea of wanting to be the chief resident, which you ultimately decided as you got closer wasn't for you, and that's totally fine. But it all starts with thinking bigger about what's possible, coming up with a vision for the life that you're creating, and then learning the practices that will move you forward. We talked about a few of them today. Mindset affirmations, visualization. And so this Friday August 14th we're going to have the Ask What's Possible workshop. You can learn more and sign up at mindfulfire.org/workshop. So Nick, let's switch gears now into the Mindful Fire Final Four. You ready?

Nic Ferry 49:31

I guess.

Adam Coelho 49:31

All right. So the first question is about envisioning. We've done a lot of work. It's been years now. you've basically made happen all the things that you've envisioned so far. What's your big vision for the next five years of your life?

Nic Ferry 49:44

I think a big part of the envisioning for my next five years is realizing how much transition there is and putting a framework, so like we did with the medicine abroad, but not making it so ironclad like I used to try to. So actually taking a step back and making it a little bit more vague to leave those doors of opportunity open. So remembering the goals, the values, the priorities of my children, my family, as well as the medicine abroad, and just seeing what walks in the door that fits that opportunity. Just using that envisioning has already started to bring a couple opportunities, even though I'm two years out from needing to worry about it per se, on what that next step might look like. So just being a little bit more lenient on maybe I don't know the future.

Adam Coelho 50:26

So for example, what opportunities?

Nic Ferry 50:27

Diving a little bit deeper into the alternative FI lifestyle, A lot of people coming out of residencies simply go, "Where's the biggest paycheck, and how do I work the hardest?" Cause it's time to do that. Versus with the work that we've done with the envisioning on what my values are, my priorities of my kids, my family, maybe that doesn't look like full-time or 100 hours a week right out the door. Maybe I go towards something that's traditionally thought of more of a, as a end of career lifestyle, so that way I can focus on my family, and then I can also have that extra time for medicine abroad. And that makes some people uncomfortable, but doing that envisioning, doing that work makes me a lot more comfortable with it.

Adam Coelho 51:03

Very cool. Yeah. So it sounds like the vision is keeping your family at the forefront of your vision- Yes and your priority list, and building that balanced lifestyle from the beginning rather than going hard, continuing to go hard, 'cause you're already going hard in residency. That's required. But not necessarily chasing the biggest paycheck, but choosing the balanced lifestyle that allows you to build wealth slowly and live the life that you wanna live with your family, contributing abroad, having all these experiences but in a more sustainable way.

Nic Ferry 51:36

Absolutely. Because I feel like if I keep that balance, yes, maybe I'm in the clinic a little bit less or a couple less hours with patients, but I'm really gonna be my best self for my patients- rather than that burnt-out physician that is so common nowadays.

Adam Coelho 51:50

Yeah. I love that. Second question is, what piece of advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

Nic Ferry 51:56

Oh, geez, that one's easy. Invest in yourself. Whether that is that first book of "Simple Path to Wealth," or if you're a couple steps further down the path and you need that coach to help you down that path a little bit further or see what that picture is, taking that time and actually figuring out what the next step is, what your picture is. If you don't do that work, there's too many people in this community that end up 20, 30 years down the road or, hey, you go 90% savings rate 10 years down the road, what are you going towards? So take that time. Figure out what you're going towards.

Adam Coelho 52:24

Love that. And the third question is, what piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with meditation and/or mindfulness?

Nic Ferry 53:21

A lot of forgiveness for yourself. I was, and frankly still am, horrible. I did that first meditation, and being that type A person in medicine, it's like, "Oh, this is gonna be easy. I just sit quietly. What's hard about that?" I sucked at it. So being forgiving with yourself.

Adam Coelho 53:36

Yeah, you gotta give yourself grace in all of these practices, and you're gonna remember and come back to it again and again, and you can always just start again. And the last question is, is there anywhere that people can connect with you online or learn more about what you're up to?

Nic Ferry 53:49

not really. Part of my priorities being my kids is I've deleted just about every other social media there is. I think I have the expected one for medicine, and beyond that, my goal is not really exist out there. Very- My priorities are my family, not the spotlight.

Adam Coelho 54:04

Fantastic. You are under a spotlight right now, though.

Nic Ferry 54:06

Other than today.

Adam Coelho 54:07

Nick, thank you so much for being here on the podcast. Thank you for being my first client. Thank you for coming into New York City from Philly after having a baby several days ago. I know you have trained hard to be able to go on very little sleep, so that's the only thing that makes this acceptable that you're even here. But I really appreciate it, and I, I'm grateful to you, man. I really am.

Nic Ferry 54:27

Only way I could do this is 'cause of my wife and the support I have, and thank you for all the work you did with me.

Adam Coelho 54:31

My pleasure.