Stop Postponing Your Life with Jodi Wellman (ep. 246)

0:05

Welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast, a show about crafting a life you love and making work optional using the tools of mindfulness, envisioning, and financial independence. I'm your host, Adam Coelho, and I'm so glad you're here. Each episode of the Mindful Fire Podcast explores these three tools through teachings, guided meditations, and inspiring interviews with people actually living them to craft a life they love. If you're ready to start your Mindful Fire journey, go to mindfulfire.org/start and download my free envisioning guide. In just 10 minutes, this guide will help you craft a clear and inspiring vision for your life. Again, you can download it for free at mindfulfire.org/start. Let's jump into today's episode

Adam Coelho 1:06

Jodi, welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast. I'm thrilled to have you here.

Jodi Wellman 1:10

I'm already excited to be here. I think it's gonna be time well spent.

Adam Coelho 1:13

Yes. I'm, I'm pumped to have this conversation. We had a great, introductory call a few weeks ago where we talked for a while, and you shared a ton about your journey and how you think about life and the world and all of that, and I knew I had to have you on the show, so it's good to have you here.

Jodi Wellman 1:29

Hey. I appreciate the invite. Excited to chat even more.

Adam Coelho 1:32

All right. let's start with having you share with the audience a little bit about who you are, your journey, and what you're up to in the world.

Jodi Wellman 1:38

Okay. thanks for asking that. And I could... my big, motto in life, one of them actually, is that like beginning with the end in mind, and like the big end. And so I'll just start off by saying I am supremely interested in the topic of how, the fact that we're all totally gonna die is actually a really good thing and a motivator to live with more intention and purpose and meaning and how I got there. 'Cause that's how does one... How did, how... what happened to you in your youth that made you so interested in mortality? Some people wonder and feel alarmed. and I spent 17 years in, corporate executive roles, and then I went out on my own and did for 12 years leadership development, executive coaching. And what? It was still great. But here's the thing. I all along had this sort of secret topic, and it wasn't super secret. carpe diem is not new. stoicism is not new. But this whole idea of, wait a minute, we're working so hard to love our lives. I'm hopefully trying to help people love their lives and their work and their careers and so on, and yet we're all just gonna die someday. was always bizarre to me. I've always found the branch of philosophy called absurdism interesting. And I found myself itchy, not just when I was leaving my corporate career to get into working for myself, but even while I was working for myself, it was I wanna talk about this mortality topic, but I don't want to scare everyone off and go out of business. And I went to, the University of Pennsylvania to take their Master of Applied Positive Psychology program. It's called MAPP. And that was the best thing for me because I made my thesis about this memento mori topic, which is memento mori is the Latin phrase for remember we must die. And I just got confident. I just feel wait a minute, now all this stuff is empirically based. We can talk more about that. Don't worry, we won't get like snoozy sciency unless you want to. But this is rooted in actual research that, that recognizing the end is coming helps us to be more cognizant of the now. And- That just lit me on fire. And so then I started 4,000 Mondays, and I've not looked back ever since, getting to do this thing I love, which is speaking and writing about the topic of memento mori. "Guys, we gotta get out there and live. we have to stop postponing our lives," So I have a feeling a thing or two about that.

Adam Coelho 3:46

Absolutely. Absolutely. So what was the, moment where you really got interested in this idea of we're gonna die- like, and we should live? Was it something you read, something that happened? I think a lot of people have a moment in their life where someone they love passes away, and they're like, "Uh-oh." Oh. Or, or someone they know dies young- Yeah and we realize we don't have all the time that we think we might have. We- Yes rather, we don't know how much time we have. So I'm curious, what was that moment for you?

Jodi Wellman 4:15

I know it specifically, and it's not for the reason you might think. So actually 16 years ago yesterday, based on the day we're recording this, my mom died, and she was in her late 50s. And then you think, you go, "Oh, classic grief story. Wow, life's short." but it was so different for me because I was cleaning out my mom's apartment after she died, and I was blown away and just devastated. And actually, the word I use is pity, and I hate pity. Pity's, the worst emotion ever. Because I was throwing away all of her dreams and her hopes and her desires. My mom was a really creative, amazing woman, and yet she didn't, take a lot of action. She had manuscripts. She had stories. She had drawings. She had business plans, even in more, it, still in some hands-on stuff, but she just kept thinking, "I'll do it someday." And she didn't have a lot of confidence and not a lot of money either. That stopped her. But what? It doesn't cost a lot of money to send your manuscript out over email, right? Yeah. It was confidence. And then I... So here I am. grieving daughter, but I'm like turfing her stuff. And it felt like this gut punch because I recognized that, oh, I was kinda like that. I had-- I was doing well in my job, even though I was like mind-blowingly bored, but I was very much of this ilk, I have a lot of dreams. I don't wanna get to the end like my mom, premature or not-" and think about all the dreams that I stuffed inside me and didn't let come out." That felt like that was a shake-up wake up.

Adam Coelho 5:36

Why do you think people do that? I mean, I f- I feel like I meet people all the time that are, I think, as you put, delaying their life. But why do people not chase those dreams?

Jodi Wellman 5:48

Oh, this is the very reason I wake up every morning is to startle us into realizing this, 'cause I know so me too. Like I'm, by the way, I'm like my-- I write for me. I talk for me. I need to be reminded to live. Here's how. I-- let's just talk about the surface layer that is- Sure very easy for us to relate to. It's because we're busy, We don't have time. It's "Oh, I wanna start that business on the side," but what? Work is in a really busy season right now. Or I-- I'm not gonna get onto the dating app 'cause I don't look the way I want yet, or we're not ready to move because the kids are still in school, or there are a lot of seemingly logical reasons and a lot of reasons why, which I don't-- I'm just gonna call them excuses 'cause I'll say that just to myself too. I'm not trying to judge anybody here. What I think most of us would do is if we stripped away those reasons and we looked at it, fear would emerge, And this is so much of what I know you talk about on your podcast here, is that I think, we are afraid, as I said in my TEDx talk. the, fear of living is, is actually it exceeds our fear of death, and I think we're actually, very much comfortable in homeostasis and that it takes risk and courage to change a job. It takes a whole lot of oomph to be able to go and move or leave your relationship or to start even a hobby. Like even the small stake stuff, we're so emotionally fragile, It's like- Yeah people say, "Oh, I don't wanna go to that sketching class because what if I'm bad?" Yeah, what if we were all just okay that we're gonna suck? but it's like we're just- Yeah trying to stay comfortable, and I would love for us to maybe get a little uncomfortable in life in the spirit of saying, "I gave it a go," rather than getting to the end and being like, "Oh, I never went to the sketch class and I never moved to Portland like I always wanted to do."

Adam Coelho 7:28

Yeah. So fear. Fear- Yeah is keeping people stuck, but not just the fear of, I guess it's the fear of failure, but also the fear of success. Sometimes people just, it's really the fear of something outside of the comfort zone of the homeostasis you mentioned.

Jodi Wellman 7:42

It's such a good way of putting it, 'cause I've thought a lot about it and I researched this. So I think like fear and rejection are like, they get the- the gold and the, silver on the podium, But your point about the fear of success too, it's like just stuff that we're not sure how we're gonna be able to handle, like just change even. It's like- Yeah super subtle. I know people that are, have been longing to, even something as simple as they wanna go and try this pickleball thing on a Thursday night, but when probing, it's oh, but it's like a routine that they've built for themselves where, but that's gonna mean then that I have to get, I would have to call the sitter and then they have to come on Thursday night, and then I, eh, it's just too- it's just too messy. Where it's well, you can see how, where I would go with this, It's You can figure that out. You can figure things out. And so- Yeah, exactly it's just change, a little bit of discomfort in the routine, and there's, all I can say on it, is don't get me started talking about routines and habits 'cause I do think that a, problem area for us in terms of dampening our aliveness, which now I've cracked open that door.

Adam Coelho 8:39

Oh, yes, you did. we will come back to that for sure. yeah, I think one of the things also that I hear a lot from people, and when I say hear a lot from people, I also do myself, I should say. it's this all or nothing thinking. It's like- Ugh if, it's if I start doing this- I'm committing to do it for the rest of my life, and that feels very daunting, so I just- Yeah, it does kick that can down the road a little bit and-

Jodi Wellman 9:06

Yes

Adam Coelho 9:07

don't deal with it until later. but the reality is that's not true. it's oh, if I, gonna start swimming at the gym, oh, I gotta- I gotta be doing that forever. It's no, you could try it and see if you like it. Yeah. And if you don't, you can stop and try something else.

Jodi Wellman 9:23

Yes

Adam Coelho 9:23

Yeah, that can seem super common.

Jodi Wellman 9:25

Yeah, I'm with you too. Very much all or nothing. And I think that, there's, a trick in the world, back to positive psychology with resilience, where all or nothing thinking is known as a thinking trap. Like it's a formal trap that I think like Aaron Beck came up with a billion years ago, and one of the ways out of it is to stop and, create an alternate pathway. Be like, is there another way forward where it's not that I need to become the full-time swimmer or that I am now like full on, like I'm sketching like a mad woman indoors, outdoors all the time on trains, on planes. no. What would be a way, and this is where I think we tend to overestimate what it takes to live a life worth living, and then we underestimate even the tiny little tidbits. So For most of us, if we're, let's just say we're busy people, you take an average month of your life and you've got a routine you're, maybe succumbing to, which works in large part except for the parts where it doesn't. Again, dangling that one out there. But if we just inserted one or two things in that month that feel a little bit more alive, like for example, it could be swimming one time to shake up your routine, or it could be that I... You do a one-sketch thing on a Saturday morning sitting outside and yeah, maybe a bird shits on it, but what- whatever. Like it's like that's a thing, Now actually the bird poo is actually gonna make it even better 'cause it makes for a better story. But anyways, it's about ex- like we, we think that it needs to be, like you said, this full commitment and we also think that our happiness is contingent on there being something maybe bigger. And I love the research that's pretty consistent that for most of us it's these small little drip feeds, like little tiny doses that actually deliver, more of a feeling of aliveness. unless you're Alex Honnold, the s- free solo climber who has the amygdala that like you need to climb without a rope to feel alive. But like most of us listening are probably not like that,

Adam Coelho 11:13

Yeah. That guy's unbelievable. Yeah, I watched that Taipei 101 climb live with my kids and it was like, what? And then you realize he's done it like 1,000 times,

Jodi Wellman 11:22

yeah.

Adam Coelho 11:22

Yeah. that's wild. So I agree, most people don't need that level of adrenaline to feel alive. So tell me more about like practically how someone could get out of this-

Jodi Wellman 11:31

Mm

Adam Coelho 11:32

busyness, this- this story that they have about why they can't go do the thing they've always dreamed of doing. Yeah. How can they start to take those little steps to create that, those little drips of well, momentum and meaning and purpose?

Jodi Wellman 12:57

Yeah. Yeah. My favorite way to do this is just starting off with a, oh, simple calculation. I always say don't count your money, count your Mondays. I'm curious what you think about that over there, money man. Because, uh, how many Mondays do you have left? And so, uh, there's a calculator on my website by the way. You just plug your numbers in. It's on the resource page. There you go. Don't even like waste your time on the math. But for example, I know this week I have 1,788 Mondays left if I live to my average like female life expectancy. And Having that, oh, you know, oh, I haven't, don't, don't, don't normally look at it that way. Now I've been looking at it that way for years, so. But for most people, where the first calculation feels a little bit like a different way to look at the finitude of your life. And that's precisely what we have to do here, is that we have to provide just enough discomfort. I'm not naive, and I know this is not a popular topic. but I'll just also be honest, especially coming from the school of positive psychology, where I wish we were wired to just be motivated, maybe ideally intrinsically, but to just find that sort of initiative to go out there and live the great life we learn, we want to live. Unfortunately, we need some negative jolts, Sometimes we need circumstance to move us to change. Sometimes we do need the reminder of death. Hello. And I think that this is where we can harness it. So counting your time left, as morbid as I know it is, it's actually crucial 'cause then it activates this concept called temporal scarcity, which is this notion that when you look at an asset as limited time only or diminishing or just like it's rare- of course the value of it increases. And we're just walking around, me too, day to day, just kinda taking life for granted, "I'll get to that later. I'll read that later. I'll take that trip later." I do this for a living and I'm deferring my existence. but when I stop and go, like back to your point, we're busy, we have ideas, but we're busy. What if you really did say "Dude, your time's ticking, like to the tune of X number of Mondays." And then it creates the feeling of, then what are you waiting for? And then if we wrote back in your brilliant notion about this, let's eradicate small or nothing, because it doesn't mean, now that my time is ticking, I gotta, now I'm gonna have to quit my job and move to the, move, d- to fulfill all my dreams. no, it's about let's be reasonable about elevating your aliveness so that when you get to the end, you don't feel like you have regrets, but that it's also not gonna burden the life you're living now. my goal isn't to make life harder right now until we die, damn it, I can't fit it in. It's about- just being thoughtful, wait a minute. what would make me feel proud that I showed up and participated rather than sat back on a Thursday night and for me, I love TV, so that's always my default. You will find me on the couch if you can't find me. That's where you'll find me. but then I go every now and then, I'm like, "Oh, I could get up and go out and we could go do something maybe interesting tonight." And then a little bit of that, and next thing life's getting lived and I won't feel so bad when I die.

Adam Coelho 15:44

So, Jody, this idea of how many Mondays you have left- very interesting. how do you keep that top of mind and actually use that to act on it?

Jodi Wellman 15:54

Yeah. Do something with it. Exactly. Great question. Do something

Adam Coelho 15:56

with it.

Jodi Wellman 15:56

Yeah. That is exactly the gist, of so now what? Great. Cool math. And by the way, before I answer your question, how does it make you feel to look at your number? Do you have feelings, thoughts?

Adam Coelho 16:06

I feel like I have a lot, 'cause you s- you said you have 1,000, so I have 2,000.

Jodi Wellman 16:13

I'm like- Oh, I have 17, I have 1,708.

Adam Coelho 16:15

1,708. Okay. then it less, less feel like a lot.

Jodi Wellman 16:19

I'm under 1,000. Yeah, but maybe you're some kind of like

Adam Coelho 16:21

life coach dude. I guess you don't know, You don't know. yeah, it's that's not that many.

Jodi Wellman 16:25

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 16:26

But I don't know how how that will change how I show up in a given day. Yeah.

Jodi Wellman 16:30

Yep. Okay. You're right. Having the awareness of the math alone isn't necessarily going to translate into an action plan today. What I think it's a combination of a few things. So it's first of all the wake up call of, oh, here's my number. Huh. Maybe you acknowledge that it makes you feel squeamish. Maybe you acknowledge that you actually think it looks generous, whatever it is, but keep that number handy, and it's basically count it down every week. the next thing that operationalizes it is to do an exercise where you identify what I call your pre-grets. And so these are regrets that haven't happened yet. So let's do the classic deathbed regret exercise, Tonight's the night and you're lying back there. Hopefully you're like heavily sedated. It's feeling good. But you recognize, whoa, I've lived this cool life, but there are these things that I wanted to do that I didn't do Damn it. So the goal is to identify what are those things that you did not take action on. To be clear, with regrets, by the way, there's research where there were regrets of commission and omission, and we are not here today to care about regrets of commission. if you regret that you invested in that thing, so what? It's done. You can't change it. Or you regret- that you didn't ask Mitzy to the prom. so that, done. These are about actions that you wanted to take but didn't, and those are called regrets of omission, and research shows that they actually are way more nagging psychologically for us as we age. And so we wanna prevent that. And so the good news, if you make a list and be like, "Okay, if I died tonight, wow, I never went to the Croatian coast. Wow, I never started that side business. Wow, I never made up with my brother. Wow..." the things that you may... "Oh, I never learned how to..." It could be tiny things. It could be big things. I don't care. Put it all down. That then is what are your pre-grets because you're not dead yet. And you still have a chance if you want to, book that trip or to fix that relationship or to start that business plan. So these are the things where like, it's another version in some ways of looking at a bucket list, if that's the language you like better, if you identify with, "Here are all my, here are all the things I wanna do before I go." It's being very clear, 'cause you, that whole adage, was it Henry David Thoreau? "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you've imagined." you can't go live the life you've imagined if you haven't imagined it yet. So you have to have something to start with, Mm-hmm. That's the list, that's the notion, that's the kinda "Here's a goal I have for my life or a dream." And then the, using the Monday countdown is meant to be the poke in the ribs that helps you to go, "God, yeah, what am I waiting for? I'm gonna download the Duolingo app, and I'm gonna learn how to start speaking that language 'cause I'm gonna book that trip." Then you do it. You book the trip. So it's again, back to that pre-grets, what do I wanna avoid if I was to die sooner? 'Cause again, we don't know. I'm, like you said, apparently I've only got 1,000 Mondays left, so I gotta get really ticking here.

Adam Coelho 19:13

Yeah, I like that. I like the, kinda the combo of, the pre-grets and then realizing that Monday countdown is going down each week- and the time is now to do that. Another, another concept related to this that is very popular in the FIRE space is this book Die with Zero.

Jodi Wellman 19:32

Yes.

Adam Coelho 19:33

And, it's a great book. One of the key concepts there is, do the things you wanna do while you can still do them.

Jodi Wellman 19:39

Yes.

Adam Coelho 19:40

And so this like Monday is, our life on a macro level, but- you can look at, time with your kids- time with your parents, abil- your ability to physically do things. Like I talked to a guy the other day. He's preparing to hike the Inca trail with his wife and some friends.

Jodi Wellman 19:56

Wow.

Adam Coelho 19:56

That you can't do when you're 75 probably- unless you're in great shape.

Jodi Wellman 20:01

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 20:01

which requires getting in great shape earlier,

Jodi Wellman 20:04

Yes.

Adam Coelho 20:05

but a lot easier if you do that when you're 50, not when you're

Jodi Wellman 20:09

75. Ugh.

Adam Coelho 20:09

And so there's all different ways that you can look at, this window of opportunity closing, so to speak.

Jodi Wellman 20:16

You're hitting it like I-- This is, I knew exactly the way our conversation would move to because there is that tension, Which is about I wanna be responsible for later. I would hopefully love to live long, but like most of us agree, quality is maybe more important than quantity, but whatever you, whatever floats your boat. But I think, it's the, quality years, and there's so much research out there about the, your health span, About knowing that so, so what? Like my math is based on me getting to 83. Am I gonna be doing the things between 80 and 83 or 78 and 83 that I'm thinking about? No. So it's almost like this math just got a little more real and starkly depressing, but again, in a way that is designed to help us go, "Whoa," back to this what am I waiting for notion. So I think, this to me is the tension point of how do you make a decision to live more now, not just because the threat of not getting to do it later may prevent you from enjoying life later, 'cause I think that is guttural for us. But I also look at it who's standing up for your life today? like to actually help you enjoy the decade you're in, or what about even just the year you're in? or let's be honest, 'cause I count Monday by Monday, what about even just this week? Something let's show proof of life, man. let's just, how are we gonna show you're alive rather than just again, going through the motions? That scares me. I tend to go through the motions 'cause I am a bit of a, a nice organized existence. It makes me feel a semblance of control, which is hilarious 'cause there ain't none. But back to the idea of how do you get... How do you choose to live now in ways that we can afford? 'Cause some of it's affording what you talk about, It's financial, but it's also your time and your energy. looking at all those things and just saying, "What would make for a beautiful week for me or year for me that I feel..." Like back to the words about being proud of, I feel like I did my life justice without squandering the investments, Or without squandering all my time so that I had so much fun, but I didn't spend it with any of my kids or vice versa. Mm-hmm. So we're-- These are the calibrations, and now realizing I'm just making everything sound more stressful. I think that if we just take a sit, a seat back and go, "Okay," listening to basically all of your podcasts in a blender, all in, all worked into one, is living this life of what matters to me. What are the things that I would wanna spend my time on, whether I had all the work in the world to do or I didn't? And to what extent, knowing I have some limitations with time and money and energy, like What would make me feel really alive this month? Or even fine this year? And how do I just commit, again, not all or nothing, but how do I commit to doing one or two things that maybe are bigger than others, or maybe they're smaller, but that I will feel like I showed up?

Adam Coelho 22:53

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, that's, it's interesting because it's-- it brings me back to a conversation I had a few weeks ago with a guy named Pete Adeney. He's known o-online as Mr. Money Mustache.

Jodi Wellman 23:05

Okay.

Adam Coelho 23:05

Okay. so he was on the show, and he-- basically we're talking about, how do you create a great life in retirement? And he's basically like, I try to create as many great days as I can," Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, I just try to fill my days with things I love doing, and then at the end of the day, I look back and say, "That was a great day." And then I try to string as many of those days together as I can. It's like-

Jodi Wellman 23:26

Yes

Adam Coelho 23:27

pretty straightforward.

Jodi Wellman 23:28

one of the exercises I do when I'm doing a workshop with a team or group is get people to take out this piece of paper and write out a list of 30 things that make them happy. And the caveat is that at least 25 of them have to be things that are generally accessible in their current lives. So it can't be something like bungee jumping in Australia off the bridge. all right, that's a different list. But things that you can do in your current life, and we all have them, and sometimes people look like, "Wait a minute, I don't know. What would I..." But when you get talking and sharing, someone will say, Having my morning coffee outside listening to the birds," Or maybe it is lying down on the floor with my dog and brushing him and what... it could be meditating, It could be stretching, or it could be, "Wow, I really get so much joy when I'm flipping through an art magazine, but I never make the time to do that." Or just get the list out, and we're-- Let's just still assume we're busy. Sometimes we just have these little choices in between moments. it's 20 minutes before your next meeting, and this is where I catch myself all the time. My instinct is to check my email. I wanna stay on top of it. That makes me feel productive and organized. Okay. But I also am missing out on a chance maybe that I might want to, go sit outside for a second, go put my feet, in the grass. Or maybe it is that I wanna actually just sit for 20 minutes. Maybe not even all 20. Maybe I take 10, and I just read from a chapter in a fiction book that is so different. So it's making these little tiny choices 'cause all that is just it's a five or 10 or 15-minute increment that stitches together to your point that Mr. Money Mustache says. It's that makes up a life. So why would we not wanna be just a tiny bit more cognizant and fill those little bits with things that are more joyful than mundane?

Adam Coelho 25:12

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jodi Wellman 25:13

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 25:13

Yeah, and so this kind of idea of routines and habits keeps coming

Jodi Wellman 25:17

up. Yeah.

Adam Coelho 25:18

Right? Yeah. So would love to hear your thoughts, maybe your rant. maybe. We'll see. It seems it might be a rant here. but whatever it is, I'm here for it. Tell me about what you think about routines and habits.

Jodi Wellman 25:30

Great. I feel like I need to dab my brow. I'm gonna get all worked up here.

Adam Coelho 25:34

You brought it up.

Jodi Wellman 25:34

Okay. first, okay, first question, for you. To what extent do you identify with being are you a routiner, a planner, a habit guy? where do you identify?

Adam Coelho 25:42

I'm an aspiring routiner, and habiter. I always joke that all of the progress that I've made in my life, in my career, in my business, is a result of haphazard action taking.

Jodi Wellman 25:54

Oh.

Adam Coelho 25:54

so I do building routines. I like, just even the, putting my keys in the same place every day. That way I know where they are, and I don't waste my time looking for them and getting aggravated by that. So I, I'm, I believe in the power of- creating some level of routine.

Jodi Wellman 26:11

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 26:12

I don't always do it. Yeah. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot recently is, to create more space for fun and joy and connection and all these things, is just thinking about my calendar a little bit more strategically. Mm-hmm. Right now I'm having a lot of conversations about my group coaching program, the Firestarter Mastermind, and I love having the conversations, but they're all over my week, I basically, I'm having this mindset of I don't want anyone not to book a call because I'm, don't have the calendar, space on my calendar. Yeah. So I basically just open up all the available times, but now it's I'm back at work and people are putting meetings on my calendar. And I don't need to do that. And also, back to your point about fear and rejection and things that, I, some of these calls, it's not the right fit for people. And so they say no, a- or they ghost me. Not very often, but it happens. And then I feel bad, Yeah. I don't need to have, I don't need to have opportunities to feel bad across my week. I can put the, constrain those to certain days, and then those are the days I have these conversations. And again, I love having these conversations.

Jodi Wellman 27:20

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 27:21

I do enjoy it. I do enjoy hearing what people are up to and what they're planning and all of that. But I don't need it all over my week. And so- that's how I'm thinking about routine. It's okay, can I create these, blocks where I have these calls and I have a day where I just, it's a free day. It's, I have fun. Yeah. I go golfing or I do whatever I want. Yeah. That's not work.

Jodi Wellman 27:40

Yes. I love that notion just as a concept, concentrating and being mindful of your schedule. And you already sound somebody, back to your point about haphazard, cool success that happens along with, you said, the actions you make. You might be different from there, there are, the camps of people that are very much into a routine and a habit, and it can be really helpful. I don't wanna also not know where my keys are. We don't wanna have to be fully activated when we're making our coffee in the morning about being fully present necessarily, because sometimes we just need to zone out and get something done. The risk, and here's where I'll get on my soapbox, of where habits and routines can be problematic in our lives, is when we become routinized and robotic, and that's where it slips us into autopilot. And autopilot is our enemy, It's that we can just all of a sudden get into the same groove, which really is code for a rut, which is essentially a grave, where we have the same routine for breakfast, And then we do the same meetings and the same, and then it's the same lunch thing, and then it's the same date night and it's the same workout. And then Saturday mornings are the same. And next thing how did it get to be September? I know how. It's 'cause every day became a mushy same thing. Again, does it help you to stay healthy if it gets you to the gym? For sure. Does it help you get the kids to school on time? Cool, if that matters to you. All the things that are important, this is where we actually say "I need these routines to keep the wheels on the bus Here's a little offer. Here's the alternative, if you're having that notion that, maybe life is passing you by, it's because you have become a highly functioning zombie. I identify with that. That's my MO too. It's that what if we just took one little thing at a time and just shook it up a little? Because the research on novelty is so compelling that we need newness in order to spice up our lives. variety literally is the spice of life when it comes to wellbeing. Mm-hmm. So what if it meant that maybe it's that for one week you go, "Okay, our Saturday morning routine, we're changing it. We're not doing the laundry first thing and then doing... We're gonna go out, and we're gonna go to a new neighborhood, and we're gonna go to that weird brunch place, and we're gonna order..." that could be, ooh, crazy Saturday, Or it could be that you drive a new route to work, or it could be that you try a new grocery store, or it could be that you are having breakfast for dinner, or you're doing s- just something just a little different in order to create more interest and curiosity in life. And again, I'm not looking to wreck routines. There's this thing called habit utility, which is useful, and then there's habit domination, which is where I think we run the risk of just letting, again, our eyes glaze over. so it's just a factor of just being thoughtful about are we- Yeah are we letting life pass us by? 'Cause it's doing it. It's gonna happen no matter what. Time's gonna keep ticking. But are we, being thoughtful about adding in-- That's where travel is so crucial, 'Cause that's the ultimate shakeup of your routine. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why travel is usually, for most people, so riveting, Even though it can be frustrating 'cause I don't know how to use the tap in the hotel room. All right, what, But it's necessary for our brains and for our vitality, which is that positive sense of aliveness we have, about literally being alive.

Adam Coelho 30:40

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. How do you incorporate this into your days? Mm-hmm. This spontaneity, novelty.

Jodi Wellman 30:48

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 30:49

Like, how do you bal- Like, what does, what does a typical day or week look like for you?

Jodi Wellman 30:53

Hmm. Well, I too am very calendar curious. Like, you had this thing where you looked at your calendar and realized how things are organized. So I'm very aware. The calendar for me is my litmus test of am I, um, liking... If I look at the meetings coming up, for example, or the, the schedule of what's going on even long term, term for the month, um, I am conscious that if there's something coming up that makes me feel a sense of dread, I need to change that in my life. Like, for me, it used to be, like, I used to do a lot of one-on-one executive coaching, and I no longer do it anymore because it just changed for me. So editing out some of those, those ahas. I'm a big proponent, and this is rooted in psychology, about positive anticipation, so I have to have something to look forward to- Mm in my calendar one week, one month, and one year in advance. And to be clear, this does not mean that it needs to be a yachting trip, something large, It can be I'm looking forward to next week, we're gonna have a really great bottle of wine that we have planned for Friday. I'm so excited for that. Within the next month, we're gonna go and meet some friends. Okay, I was in Napa, clearly I'm an alcoholic. but all those things that are like things, what is, what are we looking forward to? So that is one way to at least have that sense of newness and back to again, even just enjoying your life now rather than, waiting for something to happen. and I'm also conscious 'cause I, again, am a real sucker for the organization of a routine. Makes me feel like, again, the, the deception of control, is I try to look at it and go, "Okay, Thursday night, we're not gonna do TV, let's just try and do something different even if it means, ooh, we're just gonna read." Or maybe it means we'll go for a walk in a different neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Or, hey, what about, try usually Sunday nights it's always salmon and broccoli and what if I'm, we're gonna shake it up and we're gonna do cod. something that just- Man, that'd be crazy something intentional. And so this is just the dialogue I'm always having, out loud, even if it's just to myself, which is scary. But it is about being very, vigilant about not letting autopilot take over. It's it's a constant... this is the whole thing about our conversation, Adam. It's we can't-- It's not just as easy as to having a-ha and then keep "Oh yeah, I'm temporary. Yeah, okay, yeah, I really should get going on those dreams of mine." And then what? we're fixed? No, we need the consistent reminder because we are wired to adapt. That's a very healthy trait we have except it's also a really damning problem.

Adam Coelho 33:11

Yeah. Yeah, it's one thing to realize, oh yeah, I'm gonna die, and then it's another thing to actually consistently keep that top of mind so you actually live your life- Yes with more intention and vitality and all of that.

Jodi Wellman 33:24

Yeah. think of it this way, you've had a wake-up call, Where maybe you've had someone pass away in your life and you go, "Whoa." Not only let's, let's get past the grief, which is a big deal, but just that notion of wow, what a reminder that life is short. Or you have a friend who's diagnosed with an illness that is of your age and you go, "Oh my gosh, how grateful I am to be alive. I, what am I doing? I gotta make sure I, I'm gonna book that trip or I'm gonna plan that family reunion, or I'm gonna go start volunteering the thing you wanna do." But then we get back into normal, The usual we get back onto back to our routines or just even just the psychology of not thinking about the end because we're wired also to wanna deny death. It's a really supremely depressing topic. Why would we wanna dwell on it unless you're me? And so this is we just have to keep going, "Oh, honey. Yep. Yep. the reaper is around the corner sometime waiting for you, but hopefully not for the next 1,700 Mondays, but just we need the consistency of the reminder, and that's why memento mori is really crucial.

Adam Coelho 34:24

Mm. Yeah. so it really sounds like awareness is the first step here. Awareness of our mortality, awareness of how we're spending our time, awareness of what we want- and choice. When I created this podcast, I thought for a while, and I was procrastinating for a while, to, to your point- I'll do it someday. Create this podcast someday. When I thought about the intersection of mindfulness and financial independence- it really comes down to two words: awareness and choice. Awareness of what you want, how much your life costs, where your money's going, all those things, and then choice. What do you want your life to look like? where do you want your money to go? How do you want to use your money? Those are all choices. And so really what you're talking about is awareness and choice at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. Awareness of- where you're spending your time, how you're feeling in your life, and then choosing to do something different if you're not feeling fulfilled, excited, alive, all those

Jodi Wellman 35:25

things. Totally on the same wavelength. in my book I have this astonishingly alive assessment, and it's 68 questions, and they're fun. They're, obviously entertaining and snarky, but they help you to go, "Whoa, I've been feeling a little off in my life and I'm wanting more, but I didn't really know where," and this can help you to see what, which domain of your life is feeling particularly flatlined. So creating awareness. I so my book came out, and a friend of mine, Jessica, did this amazing thing. This is, friend to the max. She goes, "Well, I took some notes when I read your book." So she did a PowerPoint presentation, and she showed me how... She goes, "I see this with your book as it's awareness-" Intention and action. I was like, "Oh, you Okay, first of all, I did not even intend on that, but thank you, honey, for pointing that out." because it is, like you said, awareness. What's going on right now? where are, where are you in the dead zones? Where, what do you want? And then intention, so what would you like to do in light of all that awareness? 'Cause you can't do it all. duh, we know this. no one's ever gonna nail their entire bucket list unless you intentionally lower the bar and put three things down. So are we getting aware, making an intention, and an action though? That's the key. That's the part where, my mom fell short and died. Action. so many of us, we've overthought. we're super aware. So m- so many of us are really aware, and we're- I have an intention, and many of us have, vision boards galore, or you have goals. But the action, like you gotta press the go button, and that's where many of us really struggle. some of us struggle with all three, whatever. But I think that, what's it gonna take for you to press the go button? And I think, again, that's where the threat of death can sometimes be very effective. you're dying already. you have nothing to lose. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Back to the fears we said. You're afraid of shit. you know what? what would be really scary is, dying with this really cool business plan. Sorry about that. That you

Adam Coelho 37:14

never tried. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of brings me to this podcast and the work that I do with people. Mm-hmm. I work with a lot of people who are at financial independence or approaching financial independence. They've got the money game beat, They've saved the money for years. They've invested wisely. Yeah. They lived within their means, and now they have a, reached a situation where working for money is optional. Yet many of these people have never thought about what they actually want.

Jodi Wellman 37:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And

Adam Coelho 37:45

what life looks like on the other side. Yeah. And who they are on the other side. And they fall into this they fall into this phenomenon of one more year syndrome, Mm-hmm. "Oh, I'll just work one more year because I need to figure out healthcare, or I need to make sure I'm gonna have enough money and never run out." Mm-hmm. It's always, a lot of times it's tied to, a logistical concern. Yeah. Because that's easier to figure out than, Well, what, am I really here for? What do I want-" Yeah to do with all this time that I have?" Yeah.

Jodi Wellman 38:16

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 38:17

And yet these people often are just squandering the freedom they worked so hard for so long to create.

Jodi Wellman 38:24

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 38:25

And so I guess how might-

Jodi Wellman 38:27

Mm-hmm

Adam Coelho 38:28

this fear of, or not fear, how might this reminder that they're going to die help them- Mm-hmm to prioritize doing the work, getting clear on what they want, taking those steps, those actions? Yeah. I talk about it as planting seeds. I say that our stories create our reality, and the thoughts and stories we tell ourself most are the seeds that we're planting and watering. Mm-hmm. And those ultimately are the ones that grow- and become our reality. Mm-hmm. And so that's happening all the time, you said, we are dying all the time. Mm-hmm and the, stories that we're telling ourselves subconsciously and consciously are creating the a- actions we take and the outcomes we see. Yeah. And so we can choose a new story to create a new reality. Yeah. And so I guess my question is, how can using, the- The fact that we are going to die at some point- Yeah help us to prioritize that work now- Yeah and take that step into the next chapter with confidence, and excitement, and joy, and all of those things.

Jodi Wellman 39:33

It is rooted for me in the research around people who have had brushes with death and/or near-death experiences, the classic thing. But even if someone has had a really nasty health diagnosis and they've made it through, or, one of those oh my gosh, motorcycle accident or something happened where they, whoa, they were on the edge. They almost saw it. Maybe some of them literally saw the light, I don't know. But they got to come home and say, Whoa, I almost lost life." And in my book I go through eight distinct research-based lessons that people have learned, and all I can think of is geez, I'm so envious of these people because I am very clear on the benefits of mortality as a motivator, but these people are off the charts because they have... You used the word a minute ago that's the crucial one, it's reprioritizing. So it is, I do this exercise with people to, to have them imagine that they are coming home from the hospital where they almost lost it. And they come home and they go, look around, and you're like, what? This stupid thing doesn't matter anymore. what was I worried? look at this thing on my to-do list. And you're like, that doesn't matter anymore. So there's two things, that there's a trivialness, a falling away of the silly things that don't matter as much because it used to matter, but now you're like, I almost died. I'm lucky to be here. Now I see what matters and the stupid stuff doesn't. I now see what does matter." I met a woman in Palm Springs who runs a nonprofit called Shay's Warriors for women who survive breast cancer. She's a survivor herself. When she was going through chemo, she went through 20 weeks, she bought herself a new journal. So she sat down while she's in chemo session number one, and she cracked it open. it always has to make that cracking sound just for effect. But she drew a circle on the page, and she said, "It was very intentional." She said, "When I get through this, I wanna write out the things that I want in my life." And so she wrote out in the circle- people that she wanted to still be in her life, thing like mindsets, like activities. And then she's like, "And more importantly, the stuff outside the circle I wrote out who I didn't wanna be in my life when I make it through this, and what stupid attitudes," she had a bit more of a pleasing kind of mentality. She's like, "Gone with that," and all these other notions. And I called it Shay Circle 'cause well, there we go. And that for me is really profound. So I think for many of us, okay, not only is it obviously reading my chapter on people who have brushes with death to learn about it, how do you get a heightened appreciation for this finite life you have? And how do you realize, how do you get conscious of, imagine if I almost lost it, what do I wanna be doing? What do I not wanna be doing? And what am I waiting for? having that consistent reminder. Mm-hmm. This just does need to be a bit of a consistent practice, like brushing your teeth. You have to keep that mindset of, I am not getting any younger. I'm not getting any more..." that's not true, mate. I was gonna say, not getting any more fit. That's not true necessarily. But over time, you said earlier, maybe when you're 75, Inca Trail isn't gonna be feeling so hot for you. So it's that heightening your own appreciation for life, recognizing what you still have and what you are taking for granted. No doubt we're doing that. Mm-hmm. and how do you, how do you just keep getting back to that? Keep reading stories. Keep reading obituaries. Keep reading... I have a, again, it's a chapter in the book. I'm truly peddling this hard today. But this idea of having a date- Please do with death where, go and walk through, the cemetery, ideally on a nice day, not at night. look at the lives of people who... I'm very big into looking at the obituaries, I said. writing your own or having conversations with friends about their own bucket list ideas. But not bucket lists randomly hanging out there, but bucket lists with dates. A bucket list is just a road to hell paved with good intentions situation if you just have a dream on a page without a date. You gotta be able to say, "I'm gonna do the Inca Trail by spring 2028." now, now we're talking about living. So these are just a bunch of sprinklings of ways to keep this notion of time is limited. What are you gonna do with it? 'Cause now that you are technically at the point where financial independence is, it's been achieved- Now it's about we need to startle you into starting the living now.

Adam Coelho 43:27

Mm.

Jodi Wellman 43:28

Cause again, yeah, there, there's no point postponing your life

Adam Coelho 43:32

so Jodie, I know you have this idea of going wider and deeper in your life. Mm-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit about what that means and how someone could actually do that?

Jodi Wellman 43:41

One of the ways that- I'm gonna say something yeah, I'm thinking right now back to this idea of making life happen now when, fire has been achieved, is looking at life through a framework of living wider and deeper, and it's part diagnostic, and it's also hopefully part instructive and, inspiring. So the idea of living wider has to do with the construct of vitality, and that's more of ha- having the fun, doing the, having the experiences in life, the pleasures more traditionally seen as, the happy stuff. And then there's also living deeper, different dimension. For me, it's the Y-axis in this chart, where that has to do with meaning and purpose and having deep quality connections with people. Maybe there's a spiritual aspect if that matters to you. Hmm. And I think for most people, when looking at those dimensions, there's, an immediate sense of, scale of one to 10, yeah, I'm, a five there, a seven there, ooh, I'm, a two here. And that can be helpful to start with if you do wanna start to live your life rather than the just one more year, 'cause that does represent, to me, fear of actually, committing to life and maybe losing some identity stuff, I get it, and also, having that sense of purpose. Maybe it is a purpose thing, and so maybe that's aligning with the depth thing. And maybe that means, hey, if that's what you don't wanna miss out on, how do you build Something that does feel purposeful and meaningful and that is no longer the job-job that you're doing to keep earning more money for safety. So that could be many things for different people, It could be getting involved in the community. It could be a different project. It could be learning and share. It could be mentoring people. It could be... The list goes on. For some people, they may say, I've got enough meaning. I feel like I've got," maybe it's elderly kids, or I've got kids, or I've got whatever. Something in your life that feels meaningful already. I just wanna have more fun." Mm-hmm. And that is usually an easier dial to turn just 'cause the, opportunities are more out there and obvious. Mm-hmm. But that could be thoughtful about, well, what would that look like? so for this next year, I'm a big fan of having a theme or at least a list, the year of all things, maybe exploration. Mm-hmm when I was 33, I made it the year of all things fun and entertainment. Three was my favorite number, so I knew 33 was gonna be a pivotal year. it is about maybe making something thematic where it is, it gives you just a little bit of a focus to live your life 'cause no one ever said it was easy when you're not surrounded by the structure of work. And it does take a little bit of practice, and I think for some of us, we just have to get creative. And it could be the year of all things fire, So it's I, I've, I'm committing to this now, damn it. I've achieved this. Now what would that look like? And it might mean I'm gonna do, the top 10 burger joints in town, and I'm gonna go and try three new, Which by the way, did I see that you had a cheeseburger for the first time?

Adam Coelho 46:27

I did, yes. I did. I-

Jodi Wellman 46:28

Really? What?

Adam Coelho 46:29

Yeah. Yeah, I was a very picky eater growing up, and I never ordered a cheeseburger until that day, I was playing golf. I was having fun. I was looking up best burger near me, and then there was this place. And I got there, and I ordered, and it was amazing. It was so good. Um- I so yeah, I'm liv- I'm living. I'm living a little bit.

Jodi Wellman 46:49

That's the life get lived over there. That's

Adam Coelho 46:50

right.

Jodi Wellman 46:51

Yes. it could be-

Adam Coelho 46:51

Might shorten my life, but

Jodi Wellman 46:53

these are the trade-offs we make for enjoyment.

Adam Coelho 46:55

That's

Jodi Wellman 46:55

right. but however it suits you, by the way, I will just be very clear, I don't know about you, the husband and I, we're kinda fans of a long weekend. Sometimes it's easier to take off than a bigger block of time, blah, blah, blah. The risk, if we don't do the list of all things long weekend in August, we're just, it's just gonna all of a sudden become three days of a usual weekend with just a little more time that we've squandered. So you have to have something these are a list of 17 cool things that we need to do. we're gonna go for a date shake 'cause in the Coachella Valley here we live in Palm Springs, everybody eats freaking date shakes, whatever. That's great You take a, a date grove- Like da- oh, the fruit area and they, they- Yeah, the dried fruit blend them into this. Okay. Got It's sweet. It's, a thing. Okay. but that's an example of a thing where we're like, "Well, we've always wanted to go to that weird tourist thing that we've never even done since we moved here," and you put it on the list and the next thing you don't do it all, but you do some of them. Same thing, that could be just at least a way to say, do you wanna live wider and/or do you wanna live deeper- for this next year? Which really we just need a year in order to build the routine of, back to a good routine, the rhythm of I'm proving to myself I know how to live a life worth living to me. Mm-hmm. And that means that I was intentional. I put out these things that'd be fun to do. I wrote a list of, of things to do that would widen my life with vitality. I wrote a list of things that might make me feel deeper. One list may be shorter than the other on purpose. And you go out and you just start doing it, and then you feel a little bit okay, fine, maybe you like the check the box approach, or maybe it's that you like spontaneity, but at least you've got a guide that you've identified about, okay, these are things that would make me feel that I, there was some sense of aliveness going on this year.

Adam Coelho 48:26

Um, I love that concept. That, that, that's really interesting, and that's something that I can use in sales conversations. It's like, do you wanna go wider or deeper? 'Cause I feel like, it, and it's probably a com- combination of both.

Jodi Wellman 48:40

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 48:40

that people, a lot of people want more meaning in their life, for sure.

Jodi Wellman 48:43

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 48:44

Um, and some people, I mean, and I, I think a lot of people wanna have more fun as well. that's certainly my theme for this year is- optimizing for connection and fun, rather than money. Nice. Last year, I was optimizing for money. Yeah. And I was very focused on corporate workshops, thinking that's the easiest path to making money for the business. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But then I realized, I actually, I'm just sen- sitting behind an email sending emails to people who may or may not want them.

Jodi Wellman 49:11

Mm.

Adam Coelho 49:11

What would it look like to have more fun? And that's where I decided, "Oh, what? I'm gonna optimize for connection and fun. I'm gonna come back over to the group coaching side," 'cause I really loved it when I did it. Yeah. And I really love the conversations that I'm having with people and- kind of helping them prioritize their life, I, it's- Yes you're giving me a whole new s- way of thinking about what I do and how I talk about what I do. so I really appreciate that.

Jodi Wellman 49:35

I'm so happy to hear that. And what I'm gonna do right now is I'm gonna show you a visual. It's page 54. Awesome. And these are quadrants that come up when you take living wider and deeper, 'cause you realize what's happening when you put two axes together, it's begging for four different, Of

Adam Coelho 49:48

course, of course

Jodi Wellman 49:49

four different areas. And that can be helped further with diagnostics, 'Cause I think most people in my research end up in the category called meaningfully bored, and that means that they are actually okay on meaning, self-assessed. "Okay, I've got enough meaning in my life, but I don't have enough of the vitality, the width." And that puts them, like 39 to 41% on average will end up there, and it's that they want more joie de vivre. They w- want a little more excitement. but then conversely, you could have people that are also vitally empty, where they've got enough vitality-

Adam Coelho 50:18

They're just

Jodi Wellman 50:18

having, yeah fun is being had, but they

Adam Coelho 50:19

need more meaning. They're partying, they're having fun all the time, but yeah, they're, they're- They're not-- Yeah, they don't feel that, that level of depth.

Jodi Wellman 50:26

Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes that's helpful too, to take a look at your life and go, "Wait, what quadrant am I in? And, and what would be one small thing I could do in order to just notch it over and up?" Again, not all or nothing, just one small thing.

Adam Coelho 50:38

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah. And one of the things I talk about and teach is mini experiments, What's the smallest, lowest risk, lowest investment way that you could just try something aligned with your vision? That you could just take one step forward to see if you like it, and then another step. and so I love lowering the bar, so that people can just get going.

Jodi Wellman 51:00

Yes. On it.

Adam Coelho 51:01

All right. So Jodi, let's switch gears now into the Mindful Fire Final Four. Are you ready?

Jodi Wellman 51:06

I'm so ready.

Adam Coelho 51:07

All right. So the first question is all about envisioning. what is your big vision? What do you envision for the next, say, three to five years of your life in terms of how you wanna live, the impact you wanna have? whatever that vision is for you, I'd love to hear it.

Jodi Wellman 51:22

Love it so much. I envision continuing with my same mission, which is waking people up to live before they die, and doing it with way more creativity. unbridled, being creative in the way that I get to express it without worrying what people think. Somehow magically I'm just gonna take a pill and it's gonna eradicate any fear of judgment and I'm going to just be as creative as I darn well want. That's my vision.

Adam Coelho 51:46

I love that. I love that. And what might that look like?

Jodi Wellman 51:50

Well, I would be so fulfilled because I would get to be exercising all of the creative expression muscles, 'cause that for me is one of my number one values and ways that I feel alive. So it would look like projects and attacking new things and getting my hands dirty in new, fun, creative ways, like hands-on. whether it's more videos, whether it's different kinds of drawings, different kinds of social media in ways that, again, it's about back to what you said about the cold calling is not gonna work for you 'cause it's not resonant. Whereas if you do it full of connection, it's a totally different take, Yeah. So for me, if I'm getting the word out and it's a fun thing that I wanna draw and do, some people may not like it, but if if it's done with the spirit of joy and, and good intention and this mission I have, I feel like I can't go wrong. So I feel like there'll be a spirit of not invincibility, 'cause that might be crazy, but to the extent of a little bit I'm doing it and it's gonna land where it's gonna land.

Adam Coelho 52:42

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, just more fun, more creativity, more-

Jodi Wellman 52:46

Yeah. Fun

Adam Coelho 52:47

experimentation. Just try things.

Jodi Wellman 52:50

Yes. Yes.

Adam Coelho 52:51

Yeah. I love it. All right, the second question is: what piece of advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

Jodi Wellman 52:58

Mm-hmm. You know- It's the balance of regret. It's l- looking at regrets. Cause there could be the, I don't wanna regret spending all this money now, 'cause woo-hoo, you only live once, I wanna live. But you also don't want to save it all and then regret that, oh man, but I didn't really live. So it's m- every choice that you come up against, where it might be for a wee little splurge, or it might be for a investment opportunity, it's which one would you regret more? doing it or not doing it? So I like to use regret as a bit of a- litmus test, especially around these kinds of financial questions. 'Cause ba- balancing finance and living is, is a, it's a cool, it's a cool seesaw.

Adam Coelho 53:34

Absolutely. that is the crux of a lot of what we've been talking about with regards to the FIRE movement and one more year syndrome and all of those things.

Jodi Wellman 53:43

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 53:43

It's switching from a saving mindset to a spending mindset,

Jodi Wellman 53:48

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 53:48

And just even, you know, if you stop taking an income, now you need to sell investments or whatever, whatever your vehicle is to building financial independence. Now you need to start taking money out and spending it- Mm-hmm on just your life, but also the things that you want to do as well. Mm-hmm.

Jodi Wellman 54:06

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 54:06

Um, and so that's just a shift that people need to make. But thinking about it in terms of regret makes a lot of sense because you can regret spending the money- Mm-hmm and you can regret not doing the thing that requires spending the money. Right. And so which one are you gonna regret more? Um, yeah.

Jodi Wellman 54:24

Right.

Adam Coelho 54:24

Yeah.

Jodi Wellman 54:25

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 54:25

Yeah, I, I think of, you mentioned like an investment. You know, I- I'm getting ready to... My wife and I are getting ready to invest in my friend's startup. Yeah. Uh, it's a fintech company called Lattice. It's, it's interesting. I understand it pretty well, but it's completely outside of the investment philosophy that we follow, right? Which is basically just boring index funds. But he's a good friend of mine. It's an opportunity to be involved in something-

Jodi Wellman 54:53

Mm

Adam Coelho 54:53

uh, and to back my friend and, and, you know, potentially have a, a large return at the other end, possibly zero. But we've kind of decided, oh yeah, like this is worth doing. Mm. And when I thought about it, it's like, yeah, would I regret not doing this? Possibly. You know, if I lose this money, that's okay. Yeah. I'm gonna learn something. It's gonna be fun. I'm supporting my good friend. Those are all good things. So let's give it a go.

Jodi Wellman 55:20

Oh my gosh, that is such a great example of making the investment. And I'll share with you also for a good balance, a, a friend of mine said I wanted-- she wanted to throw her grandmother a 90th birthday party in her assisted living home, and it would involve bringing in family. And she said it was so much money that I didn't wanna do it because I was afraid financially. But she committed because she knew that it would deliver for her such a sense of meaning- Mm-hmm and, and vitality. Mm-hmm. But she said, I planned the party. It was a big chunk of change and out of my planned, you know- Mm-hmm for later, but I wouldn't trade it for the world because I would've regretted not doing it. It was the best time." And her grandmother didn't have that long to live, um, but it was this quality, fantastic family moment. And so this is, these are the questions, right? It's like, would I regret doing it or not doing it? And I love your way of looking at that.

Adam Coelho 56:12

Yeah. That's, that's great. You know, all of this really comes back to that book, Die With Zero for me. Like he-

Jodi Wellman 56:17

Mm-hmm

Adam Coelho 56:17

did that as well. He planned a big 50th birthday party for himself. he flew a bunch of people to an island using his own money and paid for the whole thing and had this amazing party- Mm that everyone was going to remember forever. Mm. And yeah, it was probably a lot of money. but he has that, and I'm just like having this flashback to a our friends had this amazing wedding in Lake Tahoe, and they just like rented this amazing house We all just hung out and just partied every day and had a blast and like, I'm gonna remember that forever. And so- Yeah certainly they are as well. And I, I remember hearing the price of the wedding. I was like, "That's wild." I'm a recovering cheapskate, and so I could be a little bit more on the spendy side to do- Yeah things like that- Yeah that are going to be remembered forever. So I'm getting better, but it's still a work in progress.

Jodi Wellman 57:09

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 57:09

Yeah. So the third question, Jody, is what piece of advice would you give to somebody getting started with meditation and/or mindfulness?

Jodi Wellman 57:18

Mm-hmm. Hmm. Oh, I think manage expectations, right? It's, um- about how it's supposed to be. Not necessarily about the results, but how it, like the process. Um, that we set ourselves up for like it's supposed to be, it's supposed to immediately be levitating or in the zen mode when it's like your results may vary, right? Yeah. Like working through the progress of the process- Mm-hmm is so fascinating to me. I use the metaphor so often about how it's like the work when meditating of trying to get your mind back to nothing. That is the work and the, the point of meditation. Mm-hmm. It's not so that you just sit there and don't think, and so that is just sometimes a misnomer, so I just think it's about managing our expectations about ourselves.

Adam Coelho 57:59

Absolutely. I always say that you should expect your mind to wander because it will. Mm-hmm. And then when it does, that's not a problem. That's an opportunity to bring it back, which as you said, is the practice. That's literally it. Over and over, noticing your mind's wandered, bringing it back again and again and again. As you do that, you are strengthening your muscles of attention, meta attention, and self-compassion.

Jodi Wellman 58:25

Mm-hmm.

Adam Coelho 58:25

Yeah. And the final question, Jody, is how can people connect with you online, learn more about your book and your calculator and all the amazing things that you are putting out into the world?

Jodi Wellman 58:36

I appreciate you asking. I am over at fourthousandmondays.com and on Instagram at Four Thousand Mondays, and the book is linked there. Like, You Only Die Once is the book, and, um, it's lots of fun. And so that's pretty much, that's pretty much how to find me.

Adam Coelho 58:51

Awesome. Great title. Absolutely great title. I love it. Um, yeah, so go check out everything that Jody's got going on. Uh, and thank you, Jody, for being here and joining me on the podcast to share your wisdom and experience with the audience.

Jodi Wellman 59:05

No, I so appreciate this. And I knew, back to being con- careful and conscious of how we spend our time, I knew it was gonna be good use of it, so thank you.

Adam Coelho 59:12

I'm glad to hear it. I knew it as well.