Geoarbitrage: Move Abroad and Reach FI Faster with Richelle Gamlam (ep. 244)

Speaker 0:05

Welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast, a show about crafting a life you love and making work optional using the tools of mindfulness, envisioning, and financial independence. I'm your host, Adam Coelho, and I'm so glad you're here. Each episode of the Mindful Fire Podcast explores these three tools through teachings, guided meditations, and inspiring interviews with people actually living them to craft a life they love. If you're ready to start your Mindful Fire journey, go to mindfulfire.org/start and download my free envisioning guide. In just 10 minutes, this guide will help you craft a clear and inspiring vision for your life. Again, you can download it for free at mindfulfire.org/start. Let's jump into today's episode

Adam Coelho 1:05

Richelle, welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast. It's great to have you here.

Richelle Gamlam 1:09

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Adam Coelho 1:13

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I know you have lived abroad for a long time, you help people move abroad and create that dream that they might have for their life. I have always been very interested in this idea of being a digital nomad and going around the world with a laptop and, earning money in US dollars and doing geoarbitrage. I've done it a little bit, but not in the way that I thought. But I'm interested to hear about your journey, so let's start there. I'd love to hear a little bit about who you are, your journey, and what you're up to in the world.

Richelle Gamlam 1:45

Yeah, so my name's Richelle. I am the owner and founder of Move Abroad Coach. And yeah, what I do is I help people create these lives of location freedom overseas. And especially if you have, any form of, like if you work for yourself in any capacity or passive income or maybe you're retired and have savings and investments, like you actually have the ability to have location freedom, so let's utilize it, right? So even if it's just going for a few months a year overseas or traveling or if you wanna completely relocate to another country, this is what I talk about, is like let's take what we already have, like the income we already have, and let's move it overseas so that you can live a life that's really aligned to you and the life that you wanna be living. If the world is your oyster, like where do you want to be? And so I actually have been living abroad for 13 years now. So I first moved abroad like straight out of college and, taught English in China. But over the years, like I was meeting people doing things, like digital nomads who were freelance writers and graphic designers, and I started thinking, This is really interesting." I would love to work for myself, became a travel blogger and was sharing what I was learning with other people. And I had so many people reaching out to me saying, I wanna live abroad. Like I wanna do what you're doing. How do I do that?" And then eventually I just realized, like wow, I've gathered so much knowledge over the course of a couple of years of doing this. Like I could easily start helping other people do this. And I started with helping people move to China, 'cause that's what I knew, but then as I became a bit of a digital nomad myself and eventually settled and was living, working a location-independent business but settled in a country, I realized I could help people move anywhere. Like I could help people create lives that are really aligned to them. So I've had all the different lifestyles. I've worked on the ground in a country. I was country-hopping while working online, and now I've entered into that lifestyle where I live in one country long-term. I could live anywhere, but I choose to live in one country long-term and run my business from there. So right now I'm in Spain, but I have lived in six different countries at this point.

Adam Coelho 3:55

Which other ones have you lived in?

Richelle Gamlam 3:57

Yeah, so I lived in China Vietnam, Tanzania for a bit, and my husband's from Australia, so I spent significant amount of time there. I lived in the country of Georgia for five years. My daughter was actually born there. and I recently moved to Spain over the summer. So this is definitely a long-term base for us. Like- Five years in Georgia. W- four months turned into five years, accidentally- with COVID. So that wasn't even a full-on plan. So I would say Spain, and especially Malaga in southern Spain where we've chosen, was really done by design rather than happenstance, if that makes sense. So I really thought about, what do I want my life to look like? I made a list of what was most important to me. My husband made a list. And we actually did a two-month-long scouting trip where we spent a week in each destination we were interested in moving to, in Greece- Italy, and Spain, and that's how we chose where we are now.

Adam Coelho 4:49

Very cool. That's funny. I just had a flashback to 2020. 2020 was supposed to be that type of year for me and my family- Yeah to figure out, we were in the Bay Area and, but we wanted to figure out where we wanted to be long-term, because obviously Bay Area is super expensive. And so we wanted to move somewhere else, but it turns out we didn't get the chance to do that scouting trip. we ended up in New Jersey with my in-laws which- it's, it turned out to be great, and we have a house here now and, it's been really good. But, it's cool that you took that approach of, like, actually going there for a little while and seeing how it was and how you liked

Richelle Gamlam 5:22

I'm a big fan of the scouting trip, especially if you're looking for a... I have something, I call it first not forever. So if you're looking for your forever or your long-term destination, definitely doing some sort of scouting trip to see what it is that you really want and how you feel in a country, I think is key. But if you are open to the opportunities and a first not forever situation where you're like, "I just wanna get overseas. I just wanna experience it. I know the country that I'm moving to is probably not gonna be my home forever," you might not need one. But for me, at this point, I'd first not forevered for about 12 years, so I thought, "Okay maybe I should be more intentional about where we're choosing."

Adam Coelho 6:02

Got it. Got it. Very cool. And yeah, I guess I'm curious about the... People come to you with this desire to move abroad, like, how does that conversation start?

Richelle Gamlam 6:11

Yeah. So I would say a lot of the people that I work with have wanted to do this for so long. But they just haven't given themselves permission to go all in. A lot of the people that I talk to have been thinking and dreaming about this for five years, 10 years, 15 years, forever, since I was a little girl. Like, those are the types of things that I'm hearing- from people. Or, I've had an interest in it, but I just didn't think it was possible or realistic for me. And I say that in funny airs because I hate that word. So we can talk about that in a bit. But it's one of those things where I've always had this dream of living abroad and traveling and experiencing other cultures, and I just didn't think it was possible for me because it wasn't realistic. And then they start, following my content or listening to my podcast or come to one of my live events, and they leave and... after the f- maybe the four days of a live event, and they go, "Oh my God, like, I could actually do this. Like, this is something... I'm not crazy, firstly. There are other people who wanna do this, too, and this is something that I could feasibly do or I could feasibly have. I've just been surrounding myself with voices telling me it's not possible for me that are limiting me and holding me back." And so what I like to do is a mix of, the strategy of the relocation and figuring out, okay, how does our income source and our visa and our taxes align, like, all of that, and, like, making sure our ducks are in a row. But also, talking about that mindset piece and the fears coming up and really diving into, what do you really want your life to look like? Rather than thinking, "Where can I go? What are my options?" what do you want?

Adam Coelho 7:52

Let's

Richelle Gamlam 7:52

build towards that.

Adam Coelho 7:53

Yeah. agree completely. I am very much in the camp of figure out what you actually want your life to look like and feel like before you start making plans and making decisions, I always say that people are rarely creating space in their life to ask themselves the question, what do I actually want? Yes. And then even when they do, they have all these constraints and limitations of their current reality that are hard to snap out of. So I also am not a huge fan of the idea of realistic, Because realistic is whatever you decide it to be. And so I like to say put all your ideas of what's realistic, possible, rational, reasonable, all those things, put 'em in a little box, set it over to the side, and dream really big. Ask yourself, what would you do if you could do anything? And then start moving towards that little by little. But if you don't know where you're trying to go, you're never gonna get there.

Richelle Gamlam 8:49

Exactly. And I have people coming to me all the time saying, really limited, almost horse blinder constraints on thinking what's possible for me, and they start asking me, I work a lot with people who work for themselves or have, some sort of business that they wanna create, in addition to people with passive income, and retirees, and things like that. and they'll start going through all these options. I could do this visa, and I could do this," and I pause. I'm like, What do you want?" But one question I often ask people is, If you could only ever win and you knew that anything you chose would work out for you- if you knew that it would work out, what would you want? What would you do?" I use this question all the time in my coaching, and I get an answer immediately. "Oh, I would do that. I would write the book. I would move to this country. they immediately know. And we just out logic ourselves from our dreams by convincing ourselves that our dreams aren't realistic. But the funny thing is, when they tell me the thing that they want, I'm like, "That's totally possible for you. this is not- out of the realm of possibility. I don't understand why you think you can't have that." Or maybe we're not qualified for that country right this second, but we can easily get there. We just have to know where we're going. So maybe we have a stepping stone country where your dream is Spain, but we... You don't have an LLC that's a year old, okay. We can't qualify for the visa right this second. Let's move to Mexico, build up the income, get the LLC going, then move to Spain. we... There... We can... We have a path, We have to know where we're going- before we start taking steps forward.

Adam Coelho 10:19

Yeah, absolutely. So Richelle, One of the things that a lot of people on the path to financial independence have probably heard about is this idea of geoarbitrage, Yes. So basically earning money in a high cost of living country at a high rate, and then using that in a lower cost country where you can... Your money goes a lot further. and I know before we started recording, you mentioned that's something that a lot of people do to either accelerate their path to FI or start living their, financially independent life somewhere else sooner. would love to hear your thoughts on, how you've seen that play out in the work that you do.

Richelle Gamlam 10:55

Yes, definitely. if you have an income source that you are making that you could feasibly do from anywhere, Especially if you work for yourself in any capacity, or you have some sort of passive income or something like that coming in that's not tied to a W-2, corporate job that won't ever allow you to move abroad with it. if you have some form of financial independence that you could take anywhere in the world, you have the ability to do that. And so this will actually allow you to live, a financially independent life faster, retire more quickly, or just live a life that's more in alignment with you. 'Cause I talk with a lot of people who are completely burnt out working 60 to 80 hours a week, and they're not even doing work that's their passion. And I am just seeing, every time I visit the US because that's where I'm from, the cost of living continuously going up and up and up. And I'm just had a conversation, I was in the US last week, and, I was with a few other women in... with a business retreat that I was attending in a car. And they said, "Oh, the houses here are so cute, and rent is so affordable. It's only $2,000 per month for a one bedroom." And I, made a little chuckle in the back seat. And they said, "Richelle, how much are you paying in rent, in Spain?" And I said I'm paying about $2,000 per month for a four-bedroom, fully furnished apartment with a view of the Mediterranean," and they were

Adam Coelho 12:17

like, Shut up."

Richelle Gamlam 12:18

So one of those things where, this is something that you're curious about and you're already interested in travel and living abroad, you can really look at the country that you're moving to cost of living savings is high for you or, if that's a high priority for you or, looking at your tax situation is a high priority for you. You will be able to reach these goals a lot sooner and also live in a place that you love, like creating a quality of life that you love. let's do some math just to give an example. So I would say, on the lower end of what you could save from some of the clients that work with me, let's say you're saving at least 1,500 US dollars per month by moving overseas. A lot of people who work with me are saving a lot more than that. But let's say it's 1,500. Let's say you're moving to the Netherlands or something like that's not, known as a super affordable country. and you're saving 1,500 per month. That's 18K a year- that you are saving just by living somewhere else. And so then you can take those cost of living savings and you could invest them or put them in a high yield savings account. maybe it allows you to work a little less and relax a little bit more. Maybe for you, your priority is, I only wanna work 20 hours a week and I wanna spend more time with my kids." maybe I've had clients who've never had the opportunity to go to college, and they were, both this married couple are just working so many hours to try to make ends meet, and then they move to Mexico, and now the wife is supporting the entire family on her income and the husband finally has the opportunity to go to college, to go to school.

Adam Coelho 13:53

And

Richelle Gamlam 13:53

those opportunities that you might not get if you stay where you are.

Adam Coelho 13:58

Yeah. as you help people think through the vision for this life, you gave the the one question of if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you do? Are there other ways that you help people map out that vision for life abroad?

Richelle Gamlam 14:14

Yeah. one thing that I do with people is a future self visualization where I have them just release attachment to any logistics or any country, and I have them visualize what you really want your life to look like. If you were to wake up, to get out of bed, to look out your window, what do you see? What does your everyday life look like? And this, might sound a little woo woo, but this is how I figured out I wanted to be in the Mediterranean, 'cause that's what I was seeing outside my window, and that was the lifestyle that I was- gravitating towards. It's how I found out that I wanted to run a podcast, because that's what I visualize when I visualize my work. And I thought, wow, obviously I want this. And so that is one mindset piece that we use, is allowing yourself to just be free and visualize what if you could only ever win, what do you want your life to look like? And then on the strategy side, we put the pieces together and make sure that they make sense together. Because a lot of people are making these decisions in a vacuum. They're looking at... They're just overwhelmed, Look at all these visas that are available. The world is my oyster, where could I go? But aren't taxes high here? And I'm gonna- am I gonna blow up my life if I move? And so that's where noticed a lot of people are not putting pieces together and making sure that they make sense together. And by pieces, income strategy, your visa, and your taxes, and making sure all of those work together and are leading you in the direction towards that future self visualization. Because if you're making... If you're just deciding I want this country, but there's no visa path for you, or it's going to negatively impact, for example, all of the savings that you've built because there's a massive wealth tax, that's not gonna lead you to the future self visualization life that you want, where you have slow mornings with a cup of coffee and a view of the Mediterranean. that's not... so what we wanna do is make sure all of those pieces make sense, and then point you in the direction of the general life that you want. So rather than being so attached to a country, we look at what is the life that you wanna be living.

Adam Coelho 16:16

walk me through that triangle of- The triangle income strategy, taxes, and visa. walk me through each of those pieces, how people should be thinking about it once they have the vision. I think that's where I start as well. It's what do you want your life to look and feel like? What, visualization, all that good stuff. that's step one. Now we figure out, okay, I wanna do this. how do you think about that triangle?

Richelle Gamlam 17:49

Yeah. Perfect, and I love that. It's let's visualize it, step one. Now, the practical logistics- how do we get there? So what I like to do is first I wanna figure out what's the income source, right? Do you work for yourself? Do you have a location-independent job that you can just take with you overseas? do you have passive income, or are you going with savings? And savings literally could just be... And we'll talk about visas in a second. It literally could just be I'm selling my house, and now I have, couple hundred K in a bank account. that's my visa pathway. but every different category has different considerations. When it comes to visas and taxes, right? So if somebody has a successful multi six figure business, we need to make sure that where you're moving, that we need to look at tax considerations around your business and where you're moving. Each income source is gonna have its own visa type. So the first thing I wanna know is, where's the money coming from And so I'm assuming most of your listeners already have that answer in their head of like, yeah, I've got, savings or I have passive income or I have an active income.

Adam Coelho 18:55

So

Richelle Gamlam 18:55

then what we look at is the visa type. So for example, if you are working for yourself, you are probably going to be looking at something like a digital nomad visa or an entrepreneurial visa. So these are visas that allow you to work online remotely and make income outside of that country, but live in a country long term. This is if you wanna- like relocate to a specific country. Obviously- if we wanna hop around, we don't need to worry about the visa

Adam Coelho 19:23

you're just on a tourist visa at that point.

Richelle Gamlam 19:25

Yes, exactly. So if you're moving every three months- less of a consideration. But let's say you- wanna relocate to another country, and you say, "Hey, Richelle, I work for myself, I'm interested in Europe," I would say, "Okay, cool. Let's look at digital nomad visas, and if you work for yourself, also entrepreneurial visas. And here are all the countries that you could potentially move to when you work for yourself. How much are you making per month?" and a lot of times it's only a couple thousand a month. we're talking like 3,000, 4,000 a month- That you need to be

Adam Coelho 19:52

making for many of these visas.

Richelle Gamlam 19:53

Yeah, that you need to be making.

Adam Coelho 19:54

Okay.

Richelle Gamlam 19:55

Yeah. and then if you are retired or have passive income or savings, we're looking at more passive income or non-lucrative visas. So these are visas for people who are not making an active income, so you either show X amount in your bank account, or you show X amount coming in passively, and that could even be Social Security. It could be dividends from investments, it could be property rental fees. and you just showcase a certain amount of money coming in, and then you use that to qualify, and it, a lot of times it's not as much as people think. I think a lot of people are thinking golden visas, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking, you have $38,000 in a bank account. that's the level that we're talking about here. that's- Oh,

Adam Coelho 20:36

wow the thing. Okay. So- So that's what we're talking about yeah, not like the buy a half a million dollar house in Portugal type of thing.

Richelle Gamlam 20:42

No. No. a lot of countries are actually getting rid of their golden visas, so they just wanna- see a certain amount coming in per month passively, or a certain amount in your bank account. But typically under 50K, or it's like a few thousand a month coming in passively. 2,000 a month.

Adam Coelho 20:57

And they want... That's essentially so that you're not, a drag on the local- resources,

Richelle Gamlam 21:02

Yeah, they want you living there. They want you contributing to the local economy. So the idea behind it is it's like tourism, but more sustainable. So rather than having a bunch of Airbnbs and hotels and tourists that are only spending money in the tourist sector, the idea is that we take foreign income and we spend it locally in the country in a a more sustainable way. So for example, I'm renting from a local family. I am eating at, the shops and restaurants and cafes. I will be paying taxes here. So I am taking my... I'm not taking jobs away from locals. I'm taking my- foreign income and spending it- really locally.

Adam Coelho 21:44

It's income that the country wouldn't have had without you taking a job from someone who would otherwise get it locally, and you're bringing that money in and spending it in the local economy.

Richelle Gamlam 21:56

Exactly, yeah. And then we just wanna look at tax strategy to make sure- that there's not some massive wealth tax that's gonna, decimate your, few million that you have saved up. Or, we need to make sure in terms of your business that, the taxes are not gonna be such that you're not making a profit anymore or something like that. So we need to make sure that there is a tax strategy piece there as well, both on the, your home country side and abroad. if you're from the US, you need to worry about this a little bit more than other people. But what I like to do with people is, a lot of people in the US are very worried about taxes in other countries, but there are, deductions and things like that you can use. So what we try to do is just get your US taxes as close to zero as possible so you're not double-paying.

Adam Coelho 22:40

Yeah, what are those- tax considerations that people should be thinking about or talking about with their accountant or,

Richelle Gamlam 22:46

Yeah, definitely.

Adam Coelho 22:47

yeah, what are those considerations?

Richelle Gamlam 22:49

So I would say looking at things like the foreign earned income exclusion, or the foreign, tax credit, which are deductions. So obviously I'm not a tax lawyer. hashtag don't sue me, consult your tax professional, the disclaimers. actually bring a tax expert into our programs to help people with this. So for example, with federal income taxes, if what you're making, in active income is under a certain threshold, it's 100-something thousand a year, then you can use that as a deduction so you're not double-paying. There are also Social Security agreements. So if I'm paying Social Security in Spain, I don't have to pay it in the US. And vice versa. and then there are also things like potentially changing your state residency before you move abroad for state tax reasons. So some countries will take the foreign earned income exclusion into consideration and not tax you if you live abroad. Some, states, they will come after you. Like California- is a good example of that. That's the one that I thought

Adam Coelho 23:45

of.

Richelle Gamlam 23:45

California will hunt you down. So what we've done is actually change people's state residency before they move. So as of right now, Florida has been pretty good for that, because they still allow you to vote and things like that even if you haven't lived there long. and you don't actually, as of right now, you don't have to live there. You just have to go there and change your driver's license and be there for a couple days, and then you can become a Florida resident. That's all it takes. You don't

Adam Coelho 24:08

have to do the whole- six months and a day thing?

Richelle Gamlam 24:10

As of right now, no. So we- that's what we're having people do now, but we're keeping a finger on the pulse. So this is something that we're looking at, what are some things that we can do to help people with their taxes? One thing that I did as a business owner, is I have a C corp that owns a Belize LLC that owns a US LLC. This is not a logical thing to do unless you live outside the US. but this is something that my tax lawyer recommended for me because I don't live in the US. So there are different strategies that we can do. and this is even good for people who are potentially gonna be digital nomads, like truly nomadic, moving around from country to country. You could feasibly pay taxes nowhere if you are nomadic. It would just be if you work for yourself, still paying Social Security, or if you have property, still paying tax on that. But if you're not a resident of anywhere if you're only in the US for, let's say, 35 days a year or less, you could feasibly pay taxes nowhere, and that's something that I didn't know, and I wasted a lot of money paying taxes when I was nomadic. But obviously, consult your tax professional, and also- work with somebody who understands this, because most- specifically for people in the US because let's say my husband is Australian. He doesn't have to worry about any of this, most countries have a residence-based tax system. It's just the US really that doesn't.

Adam Coelho 25:31

unless you renounce your citizenship, you have to pay- taxes, no matter where you are. Of course, you have those exclusions and things like that, but yeah, you still technically have-

Richelle Gamlam 25:39

Yeah. You have to file. That's what I tell people. How much you have to pay depends on how low you can get it down.

Adam Coelho 25:44

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So it sounds like first you figure out what you want your life to look like, then you start to think about the logistics of where can I get a visa, how does my income work, what are the tax considerations? things that can be figured out, and certainly with the help of someone like you, much easier. What are some of the things that keep people from actually doing this, 'Cause as you said- a lot of people thinking about this for a long time, like myself, but there are always a million reasons why it won't work or it might be hard or whatever. I have a family, this and that. I'm wondering, what are the fears that you hear from people that keep them from pursuing this dream?

Richelle Gamlam 26:24

Oh, I love this question because this is a lot of what I do is working with people on not only the fears, but then also, to name it bluntly, the self-sabotage behaviors that we do to keep ourselves safe. So in terms of the fears, I would say what ifs. It's all what ifs. What if I move abroad and I hate it? What if I run out of money overseas or my business dries up? what about my kids? what if they don't enjoy their experience there? And then, and so the what if fears. What if something horrible happens? What if I'm unhappy? What if I'm trapped? What if I fail? really when we look at it at a deeper level, those are a lot of the fears that people have because- Let's be real. If we look at it in a neuroscience type way, our brains love to keep us trapped in our comfort zone because that feels safe and secure. So there's this attachment to what we know, the country that we know, the culture that we know, the system that we know. So there might actually be a better country, culture, system out there for us, but we convince ourselves or our brains convince ourselves that this is dangerous, that this is unrealistic, that we shouldn't because something horrible is gonna happen, when in reality it's just outside our comfort zone. So what I've realized when working with people is when I was a newer coach and people would come to me with the what if questions, I was answering them on a very heady level, where I was strategy-based, where I'm like, "Oh yeah, you just do this." "Here's a... oh you're worried about making friends? Just do X, Y, and Z." And I realized I can tell immediately whether it's how do I say this, a surface level fear or more of a deeper fear. And a lot of times if a question starts with how, it's a surface surface concern. If it's what if, it's a deeper fear, and no amount of practical information is gonna fix it. So what I notice when I'm coaching people is if I start with some practical strategy and I'm I'm seeing that I am not reaching this person, what I do is try to get a little bit deeper, and I have this system where I say, okay, let's pull in something. Adam, what's a what if fear that you have around moving abroad, if you were to do it? Put me on the spot.

Adam Coelho 28:37

I don't know if it's what if, more like what about my kids,

Richelle Gamlam 28:40

what,

Adam Coelho 28:41

what about schooling

Richelle Gamlam 28:42

What if this is bad for my children? Yeah.

Adam Coelho 28:44

What if we leave everything behind, our family locally, grandparents, et cetera, and what if we move over there and it's not as good for them because we're leaving, their friends- behind, I grew up in a place, I stayed in the same place, I had the same friends through all school, and I think that's valuable. so I guess it's- what if they don't like it I think it's, leaving behind the stable, comfortable life at home- for the life abroad, and what about school?

Richelle Gamlam 29:14

I love that question, and I feel like there's something deeper there too of, what if I do something that's bad for my kids? And then it starts- bringing up those feelings of, especially if you really wanna do this- Is this selfish? Am I a bad parent? that's what's going on under the surface. So if somebody comes and asks me, What about school?" And I start giving all of these, practical considerations, and I start talking about my daughter's school process in Spain, and how international schools work. But you have that fear there of it's not just about school, it's what if this is bad for them, And their development, and taking them away from their friends and their family. And what I like to do is walk people through a process, especially if they really wanna do this and they're coaching with me. I say, "Okay. So firstly, let's look at, what are some things that we could do to make sure that it's not bad for them?"

Adam Coelho 30:01

So

Richelle Gamlam 30:01

that would be the first consideration. The second consideration is, what if we are realizing that the thing that we did is not actually that great for them, and they're not happy? What would we do then, worst-case scenario? And then my final thing is, mindset reframe? So what could we tell ourselves when this fear pops up? So if you were to say to me, and you haven't been through my intensive coaching, so I might be able to feed you some things, right? if I were to say, "What are some ways that we can make sure that, some things that we could do to make sure that they do love this life overseas and it is good for them?" How old are your kids? Can I ask?

Adam Coelho 30:34

Seven and three.

Richelle Gamlam 30:35

Okay. So the three-year-old especially, maybe you're not asking them their opinion. But for the seven-year-old, it's what's important to you... including them in the conversation, and what's important to you about this, including them in that process. researching schools ahead of time, looking into bilingual school programs- and understanding the school systems of where you're sending them. I have a two-year-old, two-and-a-half-year-old, so very similar to you in that regard, and she's actually going through the Spanish school system. And she... she's in daycare right now. She's gonna start officially with school as a three-year-old in September. But even her daycare, I'm paying €330 per month, and all of the teachers there have degrees in early childhood education. They do, Pinterest-worthy level activities every single day, and she gets fed a three-course, healthy, prepared, chef-prepared meal for lunch every day, and she's eating things like grilled fish and tomato avocado salad, and for dessert, a yogurt. that's... And then they send... They have an app where they keep me up to date on, how many diaper changes she's had and when she's napped. And I'm like the situation. And she's gonna get to grow up and be able to speak English and Spanish fluently." And so it's, I would walk through what are some things that we could do to make you feel good about this, and to have especially the seven-year-old on board so that this would be an incredible experience for them. And if you're worried about the language barrier, do we wanna go the public school route and do a crash course in Spanish, or do we wanna do an international school, and what does that look like? So I would walk through that kind of how do we make sure this doesn't happen process. And then, okay, so worst case scenario, let's say you move abroad and you realize, you know what? I just don't think, especially let's say the seven-year-old, I don't think that this is the best for the seven-year-old. they're not happy. we've taken them out of their school and their friends and their family, and you've already relocated overseas. So the absolute worst case scenario, what would you do?

Adam Coelho 32:33

Go home.

Richelle Gamlam 32:34

Okay, yeah. worst case scenario- we go home. or worst case scenario,

Adam Coelho 32:36

you just go back.

Richelle Gamlam 32:37

Yeah. Or, maybe we look at something where it's what is actually... How do I say this? I get people who worry, what if I move abroad and I hate it? And I say the chances of you hating everything are pretty slim if you do the work ahead of time. If you do the research and you pick a path that's aligned to you, and you're not just saying, "What are my options?" and jumping on them, you're actually, working towards the future self visualization life that you want. And we do the destination research. Maybe you do a scouting trip. The chances of you hating it are pretty slim. So typically what happens is you don't hate everything. You maybe just need to tweak one or two things. So maybe your seven-year-old's not happy because we threw them into the deep end in Spanish school, and it's been a couple months. not working. Maybe we just need to change schools- To an international school. or maybe we need to get the grandparents out here every summer and stay in the spare bedroom. maybe we just need to do that. Yeah. Maybe it's not even as serious as we need to go home.

Adam Coelho 33:36

You did say worst case scenario. And then we

Richelle Gamlam 33:38

usually have a mindset

Adam Coelho 33:39

You did say worst case scenario, so I went worst case scenario. So

Richelle Gamlam 33:42

absolute worst case scenario, you go home. But it's probably not gonna be the worst case scenario.

Adam Coelho 33:47

Yeah. we talk about that, it's What comes to mind is, selling our house and then coming back, and now we don't have a house.

Richelle Gamlam 33:53

Maybe you don't sell it right away. you rent it or something, and you test it out if you're not sure. And you say, "I'm gonna give it a good college try for a year"- and then we sell the house. There's this, this all or nothing- when I move to a country, I can never move anywhere else, or if I move abroad, I can never move back home. And my thought process, and I have a little saying, which is, "I am not a tree. I don't have roots. If I don't like it, I can move," right? If I don't like something, I can change it. And I think of myself as a really good example of this. I've lived in six different countries. I've had multiple different jobs and lifestyles, and every change that I make is just one more tweak towards the life that I want. So life is really series of decisions or a process rather than a no- all or nothing decision that you have to commit to forever.

Adam Coelho 34:45

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I often get into all or nothing thinking. even something as simple as, like, I think I wanna go swimming at the YMCA. It's like, I guess I'm gonna do this forever. No, you could just try it, see if you like it- Yeah and then decide from there if you wanna do it again or not. But these bigger decisions, it feels like it's all or nothing. Same thing with, like, leaving a job, right? We talk on this podcast about people who have reached financial independence getting stuck in this one more year syndrome, because they just are comfortable with what they're doing, and they don't know who they'll be on the other side. And they feel like, if I leave this job, then that's There's no going back. And it's like, no, you could literally go back to the exact same job or a similar job or do something else. It's not all or nothing, but the stakes feel high- It feels bigger a lot of the times.

Richelle Gamlam 35:30

I say first, not forever, right? Like, the, your first country doesn't have to be your forever country. Your first job doesn't have to be your forever job. Your first business doesn't have to be your forever business. Like, the decisions that we make, we're not stuck with them for the rest of our lives. Like, let's take the pressure off, I was just talking with someone the other day who's Canadian. She has school-age kids, and she's like, "We have Polish citizenship, like, through my husband. I'd love to live there, but I just don't know. Like, our whole life is in Canada, and this and that." And I said, why not just go for the summer?" British people do it all the time, like- "Oh, I spent the summer in Greece." You have a three-month visa. She doesn't- have to worry about the visa, but I'm "You got three months." Just go for the summer. See how you like it. Like, you don't have to commit right now. we were talking a little bit about self-sabotage as well. the all or nothing thinking. That's one. But another is, procrastiresearching and feeling- like you're making progress, and all you're doing is just researching. and thinking, "Yeah, I'm gathering all of this information. I've spent hours and hours on Google or AI or Reddit or YouTube," or whatever it is that you're using, but you don't have a plan. you don't have figured out what, your system, the country, the income source, the visa. Like, you haven't put the pieces together yet, and so all you have is a lot of information, and then you just feel more overwhelmed than when you started. And that is actually a lot of who I pull in, is you talk about the just one more year in terms of the job.

Adam Coelho 36:53

It's the same

Richelle Gamlam 36:53

thing with living abroad. just one more year and then I'll move, or just two more... I often say to people, "When do you wanna move?" And they're like, "I don't know, a couple years." It's always just a couple years. And that's where I work with people and I say, "Okay." I have multiple, little I have a live event and then also, smaller course that people can purchase that brings people through this process. Where it's okay, in the course of a couple days, we're gonna figure out what's your income what kind of lifestyle you want, how are we what's the income source, what kind of visa you need, and when are you gonna move? we're gonna figure out a plan that you can implement. Cause a lot of people start with research, but until you actually make some decisions and create a plan, it's always just gonna be one more year or a couple more years. what we actually need to do is decide that this is happening and create a plan that you can implement and start making some decisions. Cause if you're just researching around forever, that's a lot of time that you've spent researching to make zero progress. And that's where most of the people who come to me, that's area they're in.

Adam Coelho 37:52

Yeah. They're in, the fantasy dream, situation. Which is a great place to start, but at some point you have to take steps to turn that into a plan if you actually want it to happen. Exactly. Yeah. And so for someone who has, say, a family or something like that, that they have these questions that I have around, uprooting everyone and moving abroad, what would be a good way to test this out? You mentioned going for the summer. And any other thoughts around, giving it a proper test run to, actually feel what it's like to live there, not, go on vacation, I'm going to Italy and Ireland this summer, and- that is a vacation, So how do you advise people give that a proper test run of, what it's like to live somewhere?

Richelle Gamlam 38:36

Yeah, I'm a big fan of what I call the scouting trip, or you could do, a scouting summer if you wanted to. And it is different than traveling, because what you wanna do, and this is what I did for two months to choose our destination, actually, is you wanna You want to, when you're going to the destination, not think of yourself as traveling or as tourism or on vacation. Think of yourself as, what would it be like to live here? And so what I say is book a place not where all the tourists stay, but where, in a neighborhood that you would feasibly live in if you were to live there. And rather than going to the nicest restaurants, where would you eat on a random Tuesday afternoon if you were to go out to dinner? Go there. Go to a coffee shop. Order a coffee. Get some work done with your laptop. I love food tours as well, because you can try a bunch of different restaurants and learn, what the local cuisine is like. Or in terms of activities, do something that you would do on a weekend. So you can, go out and do an activity, but not... I wouldn't do, like, a once-in-a-lifetime activity or, a more touristy activity where I'm gonna go to this, this historic monument, 'cause you're living there, right? So what would you feasibly do on a weekend? so for me, I love scuba diving. So let's go, test what it's like to go scuba diving in that country. or other hobbies that you have. If you love hiking, go for a hike and see what it's like and see how long it takes to get to the hikes. Because that's gonna impact your life. Or if- living in a place with a beach is important to you, go to the beach. See how you would get there on public transportation. See what it's like to be there without a car. and just experience your life as if you live there. And you don't need to go all out and, visit apartments and things like that. You can see online, how much things go for you don't need to visit houses and apartments. It's more just don't think of yourself as being on vacation. Think of it as I am actually assessing this location for what it would be like to live there. And I think a really good example of this is we looked at a couple places in Sicily to potentially move to, and I just had this feeling in the three cities that we went to was I would love this as, a traveler or on vacation. I just can't see myself living here and raising my daughter here. And I just felt that way in every destination that we visited. And so it just got to the point where I'm like, "Okay, so we're not moving to Sicily." "So let's just enjoy it. Let's just have fun now." takes the pressure off. but I was really assessing- Could I live here? I might love this place on during vacation, but when reality sets in and it's winter and it's pouring down rain and I'm on this Greek island, and all the shops and restaurants are closed because it's very, seasonal, am I gonna love it then?

Adam Coelho 41:16

And

Richelle Gamlam 41:16

I s- and talk to people who live there, too, especially people who chose to move there from another country.

Adam Coelho 41:21

Yeah, that makes sense. I like that advice on, actually treating it as if you're living there, doing things that you would do like go for a hike or take public transit and, eat at the local restaurants things like that. And, go shopping at a grocery store. things like, that are very much everyday living activities rather than, the vacation type of activities.

Richelle Gamlam 41:43

Yeah. Or even with food, right? when I travel, I try to only eat local food, but on my scouting trip, I'm gonna test and see if the Asian food is good in Europe. I'm like, I love Chinese food. Let's test it and see. people are saying, "Your first meal in Valencia is hot pot?" And I'm like, "Yes. I wanna see-" if it's good or not." I wanna I wanna know my options. I wanna try a of everything and see, cause I'm a little bit of a foodie, so I might get annoyed and frustrated if I don't have access to, other international cuisines. So things like that, that you might be like, "Oh I can't believe you went to Mexico City and you didn't see this." I'm like, "'Cause that's not what the purpose of that trip was."

Adam Coelho 42:21

I'm

Richelle Gamlam 42:21

not trying to see all of the historic monuments. I was trying to see what it's like to live there.

Adam Coelho 42:26

Yeah. Interesting. How's the Asian food in Malaga?

Richelle Gamlam 42:29

Actually fantastic. And, my absolute favorite food ever is called mala tang. from Sichuan in China, and there is a mala tang restaurant walking distance from my house, so I am very happy right now. Wow. Wow. I have to limit myself to only eating there once a week, because I have a problem.

Adam Coelho 42:45

That's great. So one of the things I've come across in- my endless researching of this, which I don't do too much, but it's always in the back of my mind something that would be awesome, is this program called Boundless Life, and it's- really designed for families, 'cause it's got a big school component. I'm curious, what are your thoughts on these type of, you'd call them, concierge- Programs you, you, you have a set timeframe, you go for three months, maybe it's, I think they have some longer programs, but there's a start and an end date. how do you think about those versus the more DIY type of- thing, and what are the trade-offs? Yes.

Richelle Gamlam 43:20

That's a really great question, and for designing your life overseas, I do like DIY. I'm not a fan of necessarily DIY-ing a very complicated visa. I'm like, yes, work with an immigration lawyer, please. Sure. But in terms of, your actual life overseas, I lean more DIY in that regard for a few reasons. Now, I will say, caveat, I have heard good things about Boundless Life from the few people I know that have gone through it. So I'm not saying that they're a bad company or a bad program. I've just heard of them, and I've heard that some of the people who go on it enjoy it. And it is a little bit pricier than doing it on your own to have that support. Just in general, and this is somebody who went through a Teach Abroad program, and I've seen many different programs, I'm not as big of a fan of programs mainly for one reason, and that is control. Now, I'm not a control freak per se, but I wanna have agency. And so here's what I've realized is, there were companies in the past like Remote Year, if you were in... That business I think has since gone under, but if you, online, have any sort of remote work or you work for yourself, they would lead you through this digital nomad process, and they'd get you your apartment, and they would get you a co-working space, and it would be a cohort, and they'd move you from place to place and things like that. And so the main complaint, I've heard it less about Boundless Life, but the main complaint that I've heard about programs and that I myself experienced through going through programs is you just don't have control. If you are assigned housing, what if you don't like it? If you're assigned a co-working space that's really an office in a basement, what if you don't like it? And so what I like to do is be empowered to have control over those aspects that are important to me. It's probably why I also work for myself. But what I think is that, there's this fear of what if I move abroad- and I hate it? But if you are empowered to make your own decisions and create your own plan, and you know how to do it for yourself, then if you don't like something, you can change it, rather than relying on some outside program or agency- to do it for you. And so yeah, I'm a big fan, get your immigration lawyer, that sort of thing, yes. get tax help. I'm not saying DIY- everything, but what I am saying is- I like to empower the people who work with me to choose your own country, create your own plan, to choose your own home, to choose your own school, and make all of those decisions yourself, because then you're way more likely to enjoy that experience, and you will either make or save more money in the process as well.

Adam Coelho 45:53

and then if you run into an issue, you can change it, You don't need to ask- the program. Yeah, 'cause you made the arrangements in the first place, and you did the research in the first place, so you know other options. Whereas if you go through just a program, now you're asking them to do it for you and hoping that they change things, and they might not, because they might have agreements or whatever they have. how hard is it to find and enroll in these international schools, and what is the cost? I'm sure it's all over the map, but, that's a question that comes to mind for me, is what do these international schools cost, and how do you find them and all that?

Richelle Gamlam 46:24

Yeah, that's a very good question. So I would say it's all over the map. It's everything from, government-sponsored hybrid public/private schools that teach in English for, a couple hundred a month to, thousands of dollars, a year. And some of these international schools are like, oh, are we sending our kid to university? Like, what is this? And so it's just a matter of- Now

Adam Coelho 46:45

are you like British royalty, sending your kid there? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, something like that.

Richelle Gamlam 46:49

Typically for those types of schools the best way to send your kids to those schools is to work at them, and then your kids go there for free. There you go. So if you're a teacher or something like that. but yeah, so a lot of the people that I work with are- they're doing a couple different things. one would be, putting their kids in local school, either public or private. So even with private, those rates are gonna be lower than, let's say, the British International School, especially if they're young. Like for example, the Spanish public education system is quite good, so I feel confident sending my daughter to school there, and I've done the research, and, starting at three years old, it's free. and we've had people with slightly older kids in the, six, seven, eight range that also, they brush their kids up on the language ahead of time and then put them in, like public school. Then we have, certain programs, I just recently had someone on my podcast that they have school-aged kids that are, pre-teens, and they moved to the Netherlands. So they found a private school that, teaches most of the classes in English and then has a Dutch language curriculum. And that, because subsidized through the government- is, much more affordable. I think it's a few thousand a year rather than, let's say, a few thousand a month. so we try to look for things like that so that you're not completely breaking the bank sending your kids to school. So it really depends on the country, but I like to look for programs like that rather than, basically are we sending our kids to university? Why does this cost this much?

Adam Coelho 48:13

Yeah, I can imagine it can get pretty expensive.

Richelle Gamlam 48:16

Also, homeschooling and world schooling is a thing as well or things like that.

Adam Coelho 48:19

Yeah, I know a lot- of people in the FIRE community do that as well, you mentioned you do live events. Tell me about the live events that you host.

Richelle Gamlam 48:27

Yeah. So twice a year I run a live event called the Move Abroad Escape Plan Boot Camp, and what this is we get together for four days where we meet an hour each day and we create your own move abroad plan together. So we're gonna figure out what kind of lifestyle is right for you, what country and visa do you need, what is your income source, and what are your considerations that you need to think about depending on your income source. And then we put all of the pieces together and put a date on the plan and make sure all of those pieces are ready to go so that by the time after those four days are done, you leave with your own personalized move abroad plan. And so everyone's gonna have a different plan, but you leave with it on one sheet of paper. And so I do this live twice a year. so our next one is coming up, should be in August. We don't have the official dates yet, but it's coming up in the summer. and so we do have a wait list if you're interested, but if you don't wanna wait that long, I don't know when this episode's coming out, but if you don't wanna wait that long, we do also have a DIY version where if you just wanna get your plan done now and you don't wanna wait to do it live with me, what I've done is I've taken the most important core lessons from that boot camp and I've created a bingeable version over the course of six lessons. and we even have an audio only, podcast version if you wanna binge it on the go. Nice. So that you can create your plan in a matter of, two hours. And then, in that program, you have the ability to hop on a call with someone from my team and talk through your plan and what challenges are coming up for you. And then if working with us is the right fit, great, we can talk about that. If not, we'll tell you what you need to do next and what your next steps are. and so that call is included in part of our mini course. the reason why I like to start with this is because, like I said, the research rabbit hole overwhelm, research procrastination, let's sit down and create a plan and make some decisions so that we're taking it out of dreamland and into reality of something that we can actually implement rather than just some fantasy that's been living in our brain for a couple of years. I'm like, "Let's do it. Let's create a plan. Now you have a timeline. Let's go." And you're way more likely to actually implement it when you start making some decisions and put a plan together.

Adam Coelho 50:35

I like it. And where can people find that?

Richelle Gamlam 50:37

Yeah. So for, our course, we call it Move Abroad Master Plan, we came up with a special link. So it's mindfullfire.org/moveabroad So we'll pop that in the show notes. and I can- Yeah, also send you a wait list for our live event if you did want to join. it's coming up in the summer. So if you get on the wait list, we'll let you know when it is. Yeah.

Adam Coelho 50:57

We'll include links to both of those in the show notes, but yeah, you can go to that, mini course at mindfullfire.org/moveabroad and go check that out. if you wanted to just do this on your own and get that plan going, it's cool to hear that there's a call included so people can actually get some gut check. does this make sense? Am I thinking about this the right way? 'cause I imagine there are a lot of what ifs and questions that arise as somebody's doing this work.

Richelle Gamlam 51:21

Exactly. Yeah. And we actually start in that course with, Is this even possible for me?" Because I realize, especially if you're left to your own devices to do this course, if you don't believe that it's possible for you, you're not gonna do it, right? You're not even gonna really go all in and pay attention to the course. So but especially, with our live event, we have a Facebook group. We have Q&A. I even do some bonus sessions, where you can ask me questions, or we bring alumni in to talk about their experience. So there is a way to talk to people and gut check and say, "Hey, it just doesn't make sense." whereas if you're left to your own devices to do this in your own time, I wanna have that call in there just to make sure that you that you actually implement it, right? I want you to actually do this. that's the purpose. I don't want you- to just listen to something and go, "That's cool," and then never take action. if you're gonna do something with me, I want you to actually implement and take action.

Adam Coelho 52:14

Very cool. Very cool. let's shift gears now into the Mindful Fire Final Four. You ready?

Richelle Gamlam 52:19

Yes.

Adam Coelho 52:19

All right. So the first question's all about envisioning, We talked about this quite a bit in terms of the starting point, figuring out what you want your life to look like if everything goes better than expected and you can't fail. And so my question to you, Richelle, is what is your big vision for life? When you envision your life three, five years from now, what does that life look like, and what is the impact that you wanna have?

Richelle Gamlam 52:44

Ooh, I love that question. I think- What I visualize when I do my own future self visualization is really this feeling of being calm and empowered in my life and in my business, and a feeling of spaciousness. So I'm still living the Mediterranean lifestyle, probably in Spain, but h- running a business that makes an impact without necessarily that... Sometimes I lean into, like, scramble hustly energy. I'm working on it. So rather than going, "Oh, my..." I- I'm

Adam Coelho 53:15

familiar. I'm familiar sometimes I'm

Richelle Gamlam 53:16

just running around fighting fires, and I'm like, "Oh, my God, this problem." But in this in this visualization that I have of myself, I am calm, empowered, and I f- I have this sense of confidence and ease around me where it's like, "Of course it's working out." And I'm really doing the areas of the business that are making a true impact or that are in my zone of genius. Where I can get on a podcast or speak on stage and really make an impact, rather than scrambling around behind the scenes. And so that's something that I'm just taking conscious steps to work towards it every day. And then with that spaciousness, I'm living my life. I'm spending time with my daughter. I'm going to the beach. I'm, drinking tinto de verano with my friends. I'm actually really enjoying the life that I've designed, and I am enjoying it now, but just with some more spaciousness and some more time, right? And so that's just something where I'm just taking baby steps towards it, and it was very interesting. In my future self visualization that I did back then, a couple years ago, I was living in the Mediterranean, and I had my own private office, and I was recording a podcast, and I didn't have a podcast at the time. I was recording a podcast, and I could see the sea from outside my window. And then a few months ago, I realized, "Oh, my gosh, here I am with my sitting-standing desk that I visualized, recording a podcast with a team running a lot of the behind-the-scenes for me, and I can see the Mediterranean outside my window, and I have my own private office." I'm like, Oh, my God- this is happening. How did that happen?" And it's, when you visualize it, you can easily start taking steps towards it. And yeah, the Mediterranean's, it's far view, but I can still see it, so it counts.

Adam Coelho 54:55

There you go. Absolutely.

Richelle Gamlam 54:57

Yeah.

Adam Coelho 54:57

Yeah. that's really one of the things that I encourage people to realize, is, Getting clear on what you actually want your life to look like is step one, and what you realize, the spoiler alert, is you can have that life pretty easily. You can... You either have aspects of it already, or you can make a few little tweaks to have that life, obviously, if you wanna live abroad, there's some more steps, but there are aspects of your life that you can start living right now, and that's what I always encourage people on the path to financial independence to do, is figure out what you want that life to look like on the other side so that you can start living into it now. Figuring out what you like, what you don't like, making those tweaks now so that you get- to financial independence, and you just continue living the life that you're already loving. And you just, if you decide to, stop working so that you can have more time to do the things that you already love. so I love that, that you're living that life. I also am living the life that I envisioned a while ago, where I'm building a business in my own time, in my own way. I have this room that you see behind me that is, a sunroom that I love and envisioned, and happened to walk into and I'm like, "Yeah, this is it. This'll work." and it's also to say that there are still things that are challenging, Life is life, and it's not all roses rainbows. You have challenges that you have to work through and that's Just part of it. But I think appreciating the fact that you are living the thing that you envisioned is really powerful to bring a sense of appreciation and propel you even further into the vision that you're creating evolving as- Yeah as you go.

Richelle Gamlam 56:35

I love that, and life's not perfect. I got a two-year-old. She's having tantrums. I'm- dealing with Spanish bureaucracy. I'm like, I now have a team, but I gotta figure out how to delegate to them. So it's like, it's all those things. None of it's perfect, but when you actually step back and you think about it, you're like, "Wow, life actually just gave me everything on my list." And I started small. Started with the podcast. And then it was the sitting-standing desk. And now, now I have everything checkmarked on that vision, but there's still room to grow, of course. But if you don't have the vision in the first place, how are you supposed to get there?

Adam Coelho 57:05

Exactly. Exactly. It's like getting in the car and just starting to drive versus setting a destination in the GPS, you'll get somewhere, but who knows where? cool. The second question is, what piece of advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

Richelle Gamlam 57:19

Ooh, that's a good question. I would say, at least from my own perspective as someone who lives abroad, I'll take it from that lens: Don't be afraid to think outside the box and look at your options. in this podcast we talked about how location independence can give you financial independence, right? you don't have to live life exactly the way that everyone around you is living it, that you've been taught from a young age is considered successful or valuable or normal or realistic or words that I hate, right? you can think outside the box. I'll just give you an example here. When I was working as a... Fun fact: I worked as a college admissions consultant in China. My salary was not very high, but my cost of living was so low I saved up $40,000 in two years without even really trying, and I paid off all my student loans. And I did that as a 20-something year old without even really trying. And this is something where I'm like, "Hey," location independence is a way that you could think outside the box and get there faster, and also enjoy your life in the process. And that's where I talk about moving abroad as an investment rather than an expense. So when people think, "Oh, moving abroad is expensive," but really, you're investing a little bit of money up front to have, more financial freedom from your life overseas with a lower cost of living, but then also an investment in yourself and the life that you wanna be living. And the fun thing is you don't have to wait 10 years for those investments to, like be... Not worth it, but You don't have to wait. You get to enjoy it immediately.

Adam Coelho 58:53

Makes sense. So think outside the box- in terms of your FI plan. I think of people who are in the Bay Area. They could be retired in Malaga today, Oh, yeah. If they wanted to, right? If they, go from paying 30,000 a year for each of their kids to go to school, and $15,000 for their mortgage a month, if they decided, "I wanna go live somewhere else," Portugal, Spain, Thailand, Vietnam, any of these places, they could be retired today. And so it's just- a matter of thinking about what you want your life to look like and seeing if that's part of your plan, No one's saying you need to do anything. You can just open your mind to the possibilities, and then go from there.

Richelle Gamlam 59:31

I had someone who was retired recently ask me, Am I crazy? I'm retired. Am I crazy for moving abroad?" And I said, "If this is what you want, you'd be crazy not to." Obviously you have to want it, otherwise you you shouldn't- Right, relocate overseas permanently. This has to be something you want, but if this is what you want, you'd be crazy not to. if the money you've saved is fixed, obviously if you've got investments it's not completely fixed, but if you're not making any more money actively, why not go somewhere that's more affordable if you can?

Adam Coelho 59:59

If that's what you want. And you want to. Exactly. All right, the third question is what piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with meditation and/or mindfulness?

Richelle Gamlam 1:00:07

Ooh, that's a very good question. I would say this is something that I sometimes struggle to bring myself back to. like I fall off the bandwagon of meditation or making time for myself, or I was like really good with breathwork and then I fell off the bandwagon. And I think what's helped me is, that all or nothing mindset we talked about. Where if I'm not doing, 20 minutes of meditation a day or if I'm not actively taking time to do this, then it doesn't count. whereas I received some good advice that even just pausing between calls to take five deep breaths, or when I walk my daughter to school and home, pausing for a minute in the sun before I go inside. just taking those little moments rather than saying, if I don't do my yoga or if I don't do my meditation or if I don't do my breathwork, it doesn't count. that's something that, we talked about the all or nothing mindset, that I really struggle with, is if I'm not doing it perfectly, then I might as well not do it at all. Whereas it's something that I'm trying to work on is I'm busy, I run a business, I have a two year old, so I got a lot of stuff going on. Got a lot

Adam Coelho 1:01:12

going on, yep.

Richelle Gamlam 1:01:13

Yeah. can I take 10 seconds? Not even five minutes, can I take 10 seconds? And that feels much more doable and lowers the barrier to entry for me.

Adam Coelho 1:01:23

Yeah. I love that. They always say the best type of meditation is the kind you'll actually do.

Richelle Gamlam 1:01:28

Exactly.

Adam Coelho 1:01:28

So whatever that is, if it's a minute, if it's 10 seconds, just make that your practice. And then from there, extend from the... You make that consistent, and then from there expand as you see fit and as you want to. And Richelle, the last question is how can people connect with you online, find the resource you mentioned, tell us about it again, and yeah, just follow all the things that you're doing and putting out into the world?

Richelle Gamlam 1:01:52

Yes, I would love to have some of you come into my world, especially if this is something that you're very interested in, a location independence. So I do have a podcast, it's called The Move Abroad Coach Podcast, and we are on YouTube as well now. So you can find me there, quite easy to find me. I'm also moveabroadcoach on Instagram as well. so very easy to find me in all the places. and then, if you wanted to join our Move Abroad Masterplan, it's mindfulfire.org/moveabroad. So you can join us there, and we can also send you a link to our boot camp wait list if you did wanna come join us live. but yeah, I would love to have you come join along. And we talk a lot about mindset as well as the strategy around moving abroad. So if you liked some of the concepts we talk about today, I'd love to see you over there.

Adam Coelho 1:02:35

Awesome. thank you, Richelle- for being here. It's been wonderful to connect with you and to have you share your wisdom and experience with the audience. I think it's really gonna land with a lot of people, and hopefully some of them will go and live abroad.

Richelle Gamlam 1:02:47

Yes. Come visit me in Malaga.

Adam Coelho 1:02:49

There you go. thank you for being here.

Richelle Gamlam 1:02:51

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.