111 : Allo: The Mindful Money App with co-founder Paul Montoy-Wilson

Paul.Welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast.I'm so glad to have you here.Hi.Thanks so much for having me.Yeah,it's great to have you.we were introduced by a good friend of mine,Rashaan,who actually encouraged me to get outta my own way and to create this podcast.So it's like a full circle moment where he connected us and you're working on something pretty cool in the mindfulness and financial independence space.So we really happy to have you here.

Yeah,it was amazing coming across your work and saw that,Rashaun and you were good friends and we had met in college.and so I reached out to him and when I was telling him about what we were working on,was like,you gotta talk to Adam and get advice.So thank you so much.

So Paul,I'd love to have you start by sharing with the audience a little bit about who you are,your journey,and what you're up to in the world.

Yeah,thanks Adam.My background's actually in electrical engineering.And,I studied electrical engineering in computer science in college.And,when the iPhone launched,halfway through college,I realized just the capability that this new,mobile,platform was going to take and how you could build with software,basically a piece of hardware that would fit in your pocket and you could do anything with,and.So I switched over and focused fully on computer science,and I,was actually the product manager that launched the Google Play app store on Android and was able to be a part of the very early days of Android and just see the mobile operating system take off.and then after that,I worked on a,contextual search.Mobile operating system that laid on top of Android called88,and where we focused on.Connecting people with the right information at the right time,and it was an amazing journey.the company ended up getting acquired by Yahoo,and,we worked as Yahoo was reinvesting in into search.after that,I took a couple years off,when my second son was born,and when I was thinking about what I wanted to do with my time,and I wanted to work with,people that I loved on a problem that I cared deeply about and,in a way that felt resonant with who I was.And That journey has led me to working on,aloe,the Mindful Money Practice,which is the reason why you and I got connected.and we'll talk more about that in this conversation.Very cool.

I'd love to dive more into aloe,but first I'm curious about the process of kind of building a startup and getting that acquired,right?Like that should help with some financial independence,I would think,and probably afforded you the ability to take some time off.But,what was that

process like?we could probably talk for hours on,on that,but,even.Know,you're,the core of what you talk about is mindful fire.So I would say before starting the company,one of my early,money mindsets or a part of who I was,I've always been,frugal.I've always been a saver.And one of the things in my journey of my own,life,I've realized I used to only see the positives in that,and now I can see the.The pros and cons of my early money mindsets.but one of the pros of being frugal was it enabled me the ability to take a risk from my career standpoint and to start a company,because I wasn't spending that much money.And so when we started Aviate,over a decade ago,Two really good friends of mine and I were able to take a year off from a salaried work and said,Hey,we're going to build this company that turned into Aviate and within a year we need to somehow make this,Financially sustainable.and so within that first year journey,we ended up raising our seed round.and that enabled us to continue to work on the product,grow the team,and then.Basically,some of our early prototypes really took off.There was actually,a crazy weekend where we hadn't fully launched a product yet,but the app was available to be downloaded on the play store and somebody on Reddit found the app and posted it.but it was in Asia where they posted it and we were all sleeping.So we woke up the next morning with our servers,basically down because of how many people had been trying out the app.And so we luckily had the capability to put up an invite gate to start collecting email addresses as we built out the rest of the product.So after working on the product,and with this early success,we were going about raising our next round of money and at the same time,Yahoo was also really reinvesting in search and in mobile.And it was a perfect opportunity from our standpoint where we were able to.Join a larger company that had the capabilities in search to really push,what we were doing to the next level.And then,where we were able to come on as a team continue to work on this,product that we loved.And,we were able to do that for a few more years.Got it.

and one,I love what you were saying about.Your mindset about money?maybe not perfect all the time,and I can relate to that a lot.Maybe airing on the too frugal side sometimes myself,but that.Gave you the ability to have the space and the resources to invest in yourself and to take a risk by leaving salaried work and go into the startup world,which in this case paid off by you building this company,getting acquired.And I assume there was some,financial success with making that move.in addition to,moving into a bigger company to continue to build this product out.

Yeah,for sure.one of the things I would say,the transition of my mindsets around money has changed from when I've been a kid to now,but.when you were asking the question earlier,tell me about your journey.I'm like,we could go back to some of my first,businesses or my first memories around money when I was a kid.I remember getting paid a penny a minute,by my parents to,work on projects around the house over the summer.And,this one particular summer,I remember saving up to buy a robot.And the robot cost$50.And so I worked and worked,and I got$45.And my older sister,she said,okay,I can give you the next$5to put you over the hump to get you that robot.And so I had45plus my sister's$5,I had$50and.Then I was like,oh my gosh,I can't waste all this money that I made over the summer and buy this robot.And so instead of buying the robot,I took the$50,put it in the bank,and it's.Still there today.And I used to only see that story from the,like positive side.Like,wait,why does anybody spend money on robots?everybody should be saving their money.And so that's the thing we should be doing.it is a part of my.being a part of my childhood,but,yeah,you're right.There's a pro to that side of saving,which enabled me to,in this case,change,careers into something that was really aligned with who I am.But there's a con to that,which is,money is meant to be used.Saving in this case.I could see myself saving without a purpose,but saving to save as opposed to being like,yeah,what?Like spending money on a robot can be a beautiful thing.

Absolutely right.it's all about the intention behind it.And money is a tool,right?Yeah.So saving and investing it is good,but also enjoying it is good too.So let's talk more about aloe,right?You said it's the Mindful Money app.So tell us more about aloe and how it

came to be.Yeah,so when we,when I was going back to.How I was working on this app,I was like,I wanna work with people that I love on a problem that is important and in a way that feels congruent with who I am I'm working with Will Choi.He's my co-founder.We've worked together for over10years.he's amazing.I love the ability to work with a really close friend and somebody I both care deeply about and really respect and the problem that we.Decided on was,personal finance.And as we all know,finances is the top stressor for the majority of us.it can go in and out of being a stressor,but You ask most people and finances on the top of their list.And when we started prototyping ideas in the space,we actually started really around the idea of how do we help people change their behavior.there's a core stat around the fact that the majority of Americans don't have$500to save for emergencies,and One idea that we prototype was around the idea of helping people use their paycheck and saving a small percentage of their paycheck,to start building up this emergency fund or any sort of savings goal you have.There's a classic study around401k where when you awa people in and then auto increase it over time,the,basically defaults matter and,you can get.A lot more people to save money for their retirement when you default them to start saving.And so we thought,Hey,why don't we try something similar?Do it directly with your paycheck.And what we learned through that prototype as a well as lots of other prototypes and extensive interviews with lots of people was that,in order,to get to that behavior change,There's a lot of emotion,that leads us to our decisions around money.And really there aren't really that many financial apps,financial tools that really get into the emotional,side of money.And the other thing is that we're all unique.Yes,there's.Like best practices.Yes,there's like core personal finance principles,but we all have different values,we all have different priorities and we all come from different,situations.And so helping people take the time to understand where am I,where do I want to go?And just be aware of that.Is a key component in our personal finance and in our life journey.And so that's what sort of the core idea behind Allo came from was how do we help people become aware both of their numbers,which plenty of apps do,but their values,their emotions,their priorities,of their life.

So Paul,it sounds like mindfulness is really at the core of this app.we talked about.you mentioned awareness,But taking a step back,I would love to hear your thoughts on,how mindfulness and money are related to each other,support each other,what are your thoughts on these two concepts,mindfulness and money?

Yeah,I was listening to a podcast of yours where you talked about awareness being,kind or mindfulness being kind and curious awareness,and I think that's really beautifully stated because a lot of that times with money,we have a lot of negative emotions,whether that be,shame,guilt,you name it.And When you have those negative emotions with regards to money,a lot of the times you then turn to being money avoidant or other,some other negative,outcome in,in regards to your actions.And if instead you can take a look at your finances where they are in a kind and curious way and just.Say,that's interesting.And then with that,make decisions that are more congruent with who you are and then also be able to make changes in ways that you don't feel that are aligned with your values.

Yeah.Yeah,I totally agree.I think a lot of people avoid money.They avoid talking about it,they avoid looking at it because Maybe they don't feel confident about it,they don't understand it,or they made mistakes and they don't wanna look at the damage that has been done.But I really think,yeah,awareness is the first step to making any sort of improvement.So mindfulness allows us to bring that kind,curious awareness to whatever the situation is,whatever mistakes we've made in the past,whatever the current situation is,we can see it clearly.Without judging ourselves.And when we are judging ourselves,not judging ourselves for that,just seeing it.Yeah.Even the judgments that come up just as thoughts,and then from there,choosing to move forward.As I talk about on the podcast all the time,I really see the intersection being awareness and choice.And you alluded to both of those things,so I wonder if you could walk us through,How the app helps facilitate more awareness and choice with your money.Like what's the experience for me if I sign up for the app?

Yeah,so one of the great things about,the.Pro and con about mobile phones is they're in our pockets.They notify us all the time so they can help us build habits.So for things that you wanna build habits on,they're great.and then the negative side is for things that you don't necessarily wanna build habits on,they can be addictive.And so what we were trying to figure out with aloe is how do we help people create a practice around their money?That is congruent with who they are in a way that is approachable and sustainable.so aloe starts off with You download the app,and there's an intro practice which introduces you to the core principles of aloe.And the core of that really is awareness.It's building an awareness practice where you start off with your why.What's important to you?it's connected,I would say to your envisioning,how you talk about envisioning.we have an exercise where we walk through your different areas of your life,through,your relationships,through your health,through your physical space,through your future,through your purpose.And we ask you,what are your priorities today?And we also ask how do you feel about these areas?are you feel,do you feel great or do you feel like,I would like to be able to invest more,into these areas.And so after you start with your why,we move into the awareness of your numbers.just a regular transactional cashflow awareness,where you see your spending and your saving and a cadence,whether that's daily,weekly,or monthly.And just notice.then after that we teach you about the importance of gratitude.one of the key sort of learnings that,lots of financial,planners have shared is,Knowing when is enough.so many times,we have this idea of like,oh,if I have this much money,then I'll be happy,if this,then that.And,Morgan Hale has this great sort of statement of like,one of the best skills you can have is to know when to not move to goalpost or where are the goalposts?and a gratitude mindset can help with that because when you're able to give to somebody else,you're inherently saying,I have enough to be able to have for myself,as well as to give to other people.So again,starting off with your why,awareness of your numbers,having a gratitude mindset,and then also being aware of negative emotions.So notice where something doesn't feel right.Then what's interesting when you notice that there are multiple things that can happen with that.One is maybe you are spending or doing something with your money that's not aligned with your values that you wanna change and you need to double click on that and think more about it.And there are other times when your initial reactions negative,but then when you think about it,you're like,this spend or this money that I'm using here is really aligned with my values and I just have some.Money,baggage that I need to let go of.and an example of that for me was,shopping at the farmer's market.So I would stress,because I knew I could get cheaper items at Trader Joe's than the farmer's market So every time I go to farmer's market and I'd see an,I'm like,ah,maybe we can get this cheaper somewhere else.But that's me really looking only through the money lens of the cost.And instead,when I was able to reflect,this is aligned with my,value of health eating healthfully,it's my aligned with my value of spending time with my family and also align with my value of supporting local farmers.And so when I was able to reorient,my money lenses,then I now can go to and release that stress that I don't always need to buy,the peach,at the best price.

Got it.Yeah,I like that example a lot.I think it makes it much more clear,how you might rethink.Something that,yeah.Might have been a story that you've had for so long that like,yeah,I gotta get the food at the cheapest price I can,which makes sense.But if you look at it through the lens of these other values that you have,supporting local farmers,eating healthy,spending time with your family,you're getting all three of those by going to the farmer's market.Where,if you went to Trader Joe's,you would just be getting,oh,this is the cheapest price on this,but I'm not getting these other benefits that are important to me.So that brings a question to my mind of how do you help people identify what those values are,right?Maybe somebody has some idea,but maybe they don't really have as a clearer lens as you just described.These things are important to me.How does somebody use aloe to.Get clear on what those values are.

One of the things we're trying to do with aloe is make this,idea,of connecting with what is important to you.What is your why easier?there are lots of ways today in which if you're like,I'm going to do the work,you can spend,Time either with a coach or reading and journaling and doing a lot of deep work,which is amazing.but the reality is for most of us,we don't have the time or aren't prioritizing the time in this moment to do it.what allah's trying to do is make that on ramp easier and sustainable.And so the way we simply do it is when you.Onboard onto the app on that first day.We ask you a series of questions and we ask you,what are your priorities right now for your health?And we give you,Some ideas,and we also have the ability for you to write in your own,and we go through these different areas of your life.So health being one,relationships,purpose,future play,and physical space.And we say,tell us what's important to you now.And that's the goal of that,is to help you in five minutes just to begin to reorient as opposed to starting with your numbers,starting with your net worth,starting with the spreadsheet to reorient and say,Hey,start with what's important to you.And then the second thing we do,and I think this is.As important or more important than this,than just the initial orientation is to ask that continually.So every month we will reprompt you and ask this question of like,Hey,how are you doing?How are you doing in your health?how are you doing with your relationships right now?And in that simple question,when I'm responding to that and I'm like,oh,I'm under investing right now in my relationships,Then that will help me prompt how do I want my next month to go differently?And some of these questions,some of these answers are financial only.Oh,there is something I could spend more here or spend less here,or save more here.That will help me in this area of my life.And sometimes the answer might be I just need to spend more time here.But what's interesting,even if you're saying like,I wanna spend more time or less time here,those also are financial questions because they have impact on,you can spend money,to free up time so you can spend money,for.food delivery.You can spend money on childcare,or this could be a season of your life where I want to be more intentional or I want have the ability and I wanna spend more time with my kids,and I would like to use that money somewhere else.And so even when things aren't directly associated with I.wanna spend more money at the farmer's market or something specific to that nature.we spend money every single day and money and time are two key metrics of,what we can answer what is important to us.But those are reflections of what we're saying are important to us.

definitely.So I'm curious about you've obviously developed this app,you've tested it with people.What are you hearing from the people who've been using it for a while?what are they seeing as the benefits and impact on their life?

Yeah,this is probably the best part of my job is when I am able to talk to users of our app.this past year alos been in an invite only,period where we have invited people all over the country from.All different financial backgrounds to give us feedback,as we've done these early prototypes,and it's just been amazing to hear people who have been,From lots of different,walks of life.somebody who's,money avoidant and really does not want to look at their finances.she said,I never thought I would say this,but I love waking up every morning and doing my aloe practice.And so she has the daily practice,which means every day she wakes up and we.Start off with a quote that's something around that sort of helps you align your finances with your values.And then you do a simple review where you look at your transactions from the previous day and you can tag,Transactions that are aligned with your values,you can tag for gratitude and you can flag things that you wanna follow up on or need to take action on.And,we've also interviewed people that have,let's call them in the fire camp,that are like,I have my spreadsheet,I have all my numbers,but like I'm missing something.And This like typical persona,it's hard for them to spend money on things that are important to them,and they're like,oh,for the first time I've been able to look at my money in a way that I am able to spend money on things that I feel good about without feeling guilty that I should be saving.

Got it.Those are very cool examples.Yeah,I'd love to just the awareness of taking a look at it and,little by little,starting to build the muscle of awareness around where your money's going.Is it aligned with your values?Are you moving towards what you want to be moving towards?Which I would argue,anybody listening to this has heard me say this before,but.Really,it starts with asking the question,what do you really want?What is important to you?What life are you trying to create?Yeah.And I think a lot of people don't really ask that.And so you described it as like connecting with your why?I would say,yeah,absolutely.You need to know what's important to you,what life you wanna create and why,right?Like what does that actually create for you in your life?and then,yeah,I absolutely see money as the.Tool to create that life,right?Like I always talk about,mindfulness envisioning and financial independence.Mindfulness helps you know yourself,what you value,what's important to you,where you're investing your attention and energy.And then envisioning is thinking big about the life that you want to create for yourself and moving towards that,using the power of your predicting brain.And then financial independence pays for it,right?Because It would be nice if we could all just live whatever life we wanted to all day,every day.But that takes planning,it takes building up of,some level of financial resources and financial freedom and,I really love how you're creating this tool for people to develop that awareness,right?No matter where they are.Maybe they're too frugal,maybe they spend too much money or somewhere in between.That awareness is gonna help them stay connected with where they're using their limited resources,time,energy,money,all of these things.As you said,they're all intertwined in a way because one can be a substitute for the other.

Yeah,I hundred percent agree with what you're saying and the.Importance is both to do it one time.A lot of people don't,yeah.Ever do it once,but it's also to do it continually,not have it over consuming your mind,but to regularly check in and say what's changed and what's the same.our life situations changes.Sometimes there are bigger changes,whether that be a job change,a marriage,kids,move.But there's,covid.but there are also lots of small changes.And for myself,I'll realize like,oh,there's something that doesn't feel congruent with me.And when I reflect back,In part because something's changed in my life in the last three to six months and I haven't recognized that my priorities have changed and I haven't changed my habits,my time habits,my spending habits,my savings habits.

Yeah.Makes sense.Alright,let's,at the end we'll invite people to go check out the app.We'll share where that can be.But I wanna switch gears now into what I call the mindful fire Final four.You ready,Paul?Let's do it.All right.So the first question is all about envisioning,right?Which again,is thinking big about your life.what's your vision,man?I'm,I'm curious,you're building this app,you're getting it out there,what's the big vision for the app and where do you see it going in the next few years?

the vision's big.Like I said,the reason why we're working on personal finance is it's a huge,important problem that hits us every single day and stresses a lot of us out.And there's,from the app side,there aren't really any tools that really help with that sort of emotional side of money.when I think big,I get really excited about if we're able to be a small part.In helping people shift both their emotions around money and feel more at peace about their finances,and also help people shift their spending and their savings to be more aligned with their purpose and their why.that has huge consequences for the individual people I talk to.As well as it has huge consequences for the world.I'm doing the work right now and I'm hoping aloe can be that for people,can help them make those shifts in their lives.And,so yeah,I'm super excited about what I'm working on and I hope Allo can help.Millions of people,connect with their why and,what's important to them.

Very good.So the second question is,what piece of advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

I would've answered this question.Differently,a few years ago,than I'd answered today a few years ago,I probably would have some sort of specific behavior that they,should do.So whether that's saving a percentage of your income or some sort of,spending,specifics.but now the answer is very clear.it's awareness.So it's.Having a practice of being aware of your emotions,your values,and your money.

Got it.Yeah.So really focus on building that skill of awareness.Which leads me into the third question.What piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with meditation and or mindfulness?

Just get started.It can start super small.it doesn't have to be a crazy long meditation.that's the thing with aloe,with mindfulness,is we're trying to make it super approachable for as many people as possible.And there's just so many benefits.There's benefits for it to be short and there's benefits for it to be long.but don't let.Sort of the idea of,a long meditation scare you away from getting started.

I love it.Great.Very simple,but very powerful advice.Yeah.Just get started.Start where you are and with whatever amount you'll actually do,right?So people always say it's like,what's the best meditation?It's the one you're gonna actually do.So just get started and we have a ton of them on the podcast here.So wherever you're listening to this,just look for the word meditation in the beginning and there are plenty for you to try out and see what suits you.Alright Paul,the last question is,how can people connect with you online,learn more about aloe and sign up to try the product?

We would love it if you would try out Aloe.We've actually set up a custom promo code called Mindful to give the Mindful Fire Community three months free of aloe,and we would love it to have you try it out and see if it can help you on your mindful fire journey.You can learn more about the promo at Allo Finance slash promo slash mindful.You can also download the app directly from the app store or Google Play by typing in Allo Finance.And I love when people reach out to me directly.So if you have any thoughts,feedback,comments,I'd love to hear from you.My email isPaul@allo.finance.

All right.and anywhere else they can connect with you

personally online,Paul,if you want us try out the app and give us feedback or just connect with me,I'd love to hear,About your financial journey and about how we can make the product better.You can send me an email at Paul Alo finance.

Very good.I'll link all of that up in the show notes and I certainly invite everybody to check out the app,wherever you get your app,apple,Google,all of that.And.As Paul said,you can go and check out the discount available@mindfulfire.org slash aloe.That'll send you right over there to get more details on what Paul's got in store for you.And,yeah,hope you'll check it out and let me know how you like it.Paul,thank you so much for being here,sharing your journey and how this new app Aloe has come to be.I really appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.Really appreciate it and really appreciate the work you're doing and the mindfulness,financial independence,and meditation world.

My pleasure.Thank you.